5 Biggest Myths About Inclusion with Dr. Caitlin Solone

Dr. Caitlin Solone, education advocate, teacher educator, and faculty at UCLA, helps debunk five of the biggest myths surrounding inclusion to help empower you and your child to build the most supportive, challenging, and appropriate educational environment possible in this Undivided Live event. You can find our recap of the highlights here.

Want to listen to the full event on the go? Check out this episode of the Undivided Voices podcast!

Lindsay
Hi everyone, I'm Lindsay Crain, the head of content and community at Undivided, and I'm so excited that you're here for the very first episode of Undivided Voices. At Undivided, our mission is to ensure parents raising kids with disabilities can access the supports their kids need to thrive, and anyone in the disability world knows that is often way easier said than done, which is why we knew we wanted our first episode to center on one of the cornerstones of disability rights and belonging, inclusion. So I sat down with Dr. Caitlin Silone. She's an education advocate, teacher educator, and faculty member at UCLA. In addition to having a sibling with disabilities, together we talked through some of the biggest myths about inclusion in our schools, and Dr. Salone offered tips that break through the real and imaginary barriers of what's possible for our kids, and with that, let's get to it.

Lindsay
All right, we're going to start with myth number one. Behavior is a prerequisite, so this is probably I would say the biggest myth, or the biggest perceived barrier, and the hardest concept. That's right, we're going to give you red X's. We're going to give red X's for like myth, right? Not not the truth. Um, the hardest concept I think for teachers and even parents to really visualize is how to make this work in classrooms, for many good reasons, are compliance-based. So, why is behavior a myth?

Dr. Solone
Behavior as a prerequisite to inclusion is a myth because behavior does not constitute whether or not a child should be in an inclusive setting in a general education setting. Sometimes, and you know, we've chatted a little bit about this on here before. Sometimes behavior is a result of the environment, and so if a child is in a certain setting and experiencing certain behaviors, we're not always sure that those behaviors are going to transfer over to the general education setting, and vice versa, we don't know until we try, so behavior is not a prerequisite, because there are so many factors that go into why individuals, why children, why students exhibit certain behaviors, and it's our job as educators to figure out what the function is, and so placement is really irrelevant to that, unless we are trying all sorts of things in a gen ed setting, and we have a clear positive behavior support plan in place, and the student is still communicating that that setting is not correct, then we have to listen to the student, but to think about behavior as a prerequisite to general education to inclusion is just a completely flawed theory.

Lindsay
I love what you said about really getting to the why, right? I mean, I really love the way that you laid that out, instead of just saying, look, there's behaviors, so we need to put the students somewhere else, and you know that can be dealt with somewhere else. It's what all of this is about, right? And what true, like, behavior intervention is to really figure out, like, what is the why, and then when you're talking about the behavior plans, which is sort of, you know, one of what not behavior plans, but supports a huge key to all of inclusion. What are the supports and strategies that school teams can explore to make classrooms accessible for students with neurodiverse behaviors?

Dr. Solone
Yeah, and I can't tell you how many times I see school districts try to make a case as to why a student can't be in genetic talking about behavior, but then you look at the child's IEP and you see that there is no behavior support plan at all, and there are no supports in place, and yet we're still using this as an excuse as to why certain setting is not appropriate, but we haven't actually done our jobs as educators to implement certain supports and strategies to really allow the student to maximize their learning and access the learning and curriculum with those positive behavior supports in place.

Lindsay
And what are some of the supports that parents should be asking about, or what they should know about, right, and you know, behavior supports obviously FBAs, the assessments, but then what you know, and if you could, you know, you can talk about those, and then what else you know should can parents be thinking about, like, okay, I need to ask about this.

Dr. Solone
So if you're getting emails home, text messages, calls from the school, anything like that, and you're getting complaints around behavior. My first question would be, okay, is there a behavior support plan in my child's IEP? Do they have behavior goals? If not, that would be my question to the IEP team. Is okay, well, should we get a behavior, positive behavior support plan in place? What strategies are we trying. You know the function of the behavior, which is the why. Why is the student? Why is my child doing this? Have we figured that out yet? Do they have a communication system in place, or are they doing these behaviors to communicate their needs? Right, so we have a lot of questions to ask the team as those that input starts coming in. So, if you're getting that feedback from the school, then you can kind of give that other feedback in asking those right questions. If there's a positive behavior support plan in place already, and we're still having tricky behaviors, and the team is, you know, complaining, it, which they shouldn't be doing to you anyways. As parents, they shouldn't be only contacting you with challenges and problems, but oftentimes that is what we see, but you can always ask, like what Lind said, for a functional behavior assessment, which takes quite a bit of labor from the school, and is a very advanced kind of assessment to evaluate the function of behavior, which we turn to when we can't figure it out without that formalized assessment in the classroom, there are all sorts of positive behavior support strategies that we can put in place, things as simple as priming students for what's coming up next, giving them a visual schedule, written out schedule for the day, using first, then charts, first we're going to do this, then we're going to do that, doing a reinforcement assessment to see what is that child really motivated by, what do they want to, what's exciting to them, building in breaks into the child's schedule, building in opportunities for engaging with others, really looking at what, what does the student need to thrive, and there's so many, so many great strategies to employ before just kind of throwing our hands in the air, and you know, saying, oh, this is just a kid with challenging behavior, because that is never the case, behavior is always, always, always communication,

Lindsay
Which is one of my favorites. Yeah, it's one of my favorite quotes. Really important thing to remember, right? Because it's really easy just to say this: this child's non-compliant, they should be in another class, instead of really figuring out which should be, maybe, you know, the heart of public education, and really, you know, helping shape all of these kids from the beginning. But I know we also have, we also have a lot of questions about specific behaviors, so I just wanted to quickly, you know, address some of the behaviors we get the most questions about. So, what about a student who vocally or physically stems?

Dr. Solone
I laugh because it's like, so what? Yeah. we are really trying to normalize stimming in in different spaces. There's a big movement outside of education around relaxed spaces, relaxed employment spaces, relaxed performances, where people can freely stim because we know that stimming is a natural part of some people's experiences and looks different for some folks than others, and stimming is not a bad thing. We should not be asking our child to stop stimming unless they are being harmful to themselves or others, and so really having that conversation around, you know, what is normalcy anyway? What is what are the norms we expect in our classroom, and why is it really for the benefit of our students and students in that classroom, or is it for the benefit of our comfortability and what we're used to, right? So vocalizations sometimes can be disruptive in a classroom, but teaching kids when vocalizations are appropriate, and when maybe it's more important to really try hard not to vocalize when the teacher is giving a quick mini lesson, and just teaching our students those boundaries, but not in a way that makes them feel like those behaviors are bad.

Lindsay
Yeah, I wish every, I wish every classroom, you know, and really felt like a safe space like that. That's why we're talking about this, for sure. And then, you know, another big, you know, really, you know, it's a very valid concern for parents. I mean, what about a student that elopes?

Dr. Solone
Yeah, eloping happens all the time in general education classrooms, special education classrooms, right? From kids who do and do not have IEPs.

Lindsay
Have you been to an elementary school, you always see kids like running around.

Dr. Solone
Yeah, so elopement is not a justification as to why a student shouldn't be in gen ed, of course. Elopement means that more adult support will be necessary for that child's safety, so making sure that the student has, you know, an aid that's available to support them if they are. Or somebody who would be more likely to elope will be really important, but yeah, elopement is it, it's it's a behavior again that's communicating something you want to escape from that classroom, or some stimuli that's been presented to you, so we've got something else going on, where being in a classroom like that is too overwhelming for that day, or you know, whatever it is that we got to get down to the bottom of it again and figure out why the student is eloping and how we can best support that student.

Lindsay
Right. And that, that, and that communication is going to occur, right? The communication that this behavior is going to occur in whatever classroom they are, so you're going to have to have the entire plan, so it shouldn't be an excuse, right, for one classroom over another, but and you, you kind of touched on this, but what about a student that shows aggression to themself or others?

Dr. Solone
So, again, same thing, figure out what is the function, what is the reason students doing that, and have a really clear plan in place for clearing the classroom, making sure the student's safe, not putting hands on the student, but making sure that you know they are protected, that they are safe, that other students nearby are safe too. And I've had this many times where there's a student who does have challenging, aggressive behaviors, either for themselves or towards others, in moments of high anxiety or high stress, and you know, as long as you have a positive behavior support plan in place that the team is well trained on, and I want to emphasize that the team needs to be well trained on what procedures are in that behavior support plan and what they can do in a positive manner to support that student, and it shouldn't be like this reprimanding situation, but you know it's really a call for support when we see students exhibiting those types of behaviors, and they do happen in gen ed, and they're not a reason why kids can't be included.

Lindsay
And even on the on the opposite end of that, because obviously that can be a very, you know, it can be a real serious situation, but one of the core fears I think is that with behaviors that the students will distract their classmates and maybe even the teacher, so is that is that a fair concern for all of the behaviors we've been talking about, right? All of, all of you know, whether it's eloping or stimming or whatever, it really comes down to people aren't going to be able to concentrate. So that's a thought. I'm not, I'm not saying that as a fact, by the way, but that seems like that's the fear.

Dr. Solone
It is, it's a common fear, and I want to remember to circle back to the last question in a moment, but the, it is, it is a valid concern, for sure, right, especially if it's your child, you don't want your child to be taking away the learning from others, or other people might be expressing that, that concern, and I will say that we catastrophize more often around what that is actually going to look like in practice, and how distracting it actually is compared to what the reality is. So, when you know teaching a long time in elementary schools, you would think that kids would get distracted by certain things, but when it comes down to it, they don't care, they get used to it, and then it stops distracting them, and there might be little things here and there that do take away from the learning in that moment, but there's more, I think, that students gain from understanding that we all come to different spaces differently and have different needs, and so that really teaches kids how to be compassionate and also how to accept those moments when they're feeling stressed out too, and knowing that they're not alone when they're having a bad day, because they see that other people do too sometimes, or other kids their age have different, different challenges, they might not look the same as theirs, but they're just different, right, and so I mean it is a valid concern too, if you know there have been a couple cases where I've worked with students that are consistently expressing that the gen ed classroom is too much for them, and these are students in my experience. They've been students who need, who've experienced quite a bit of trauma, who have gone through a lot in their lives, or currently going through a whole bunch. Their basic needs may or may not be being met. They might have parents in challenging circumstances, and are also going through just a lot internally, and these are kiddos who you know might throw things or hit things, or you know. It really aggressive, and after having strong behavior support systems in place, they're still communicating that to us. Those are some cases where, yeah, the kids then communicating that they might need way more support than we can provide in this setting, and so maybe we need to look at alternate settings, but that's the exception, not the rule, you know, and oftentimes it's flip flopped, where we think most kids with behavior challenges shouldn't be in gen ed, where it's really the opposite that most kids with behavior challenges can be in gen ed, and there are some that may need more additional, additional support in different, different settings and environments.

Lindsay
I think that's a good point, because I think a lot of a go-to also for our kids, you know, kids IPs can say, you know, that you need a small environment, which is true. I take nothing away from that, that can be absolutely true for some kids, and or if your child can be distracted easily themselves or really like you know very hyper aware of things around them, but I think the important thing is if you wonder, you know, or if you're not sure, you can always, you know, you can also try them out in all in different, you know, classes or specials, it just, it shouldn be the automatic, I think that's the most important thing, you know, you're going to make the decision that you feel comfortable with, that your child is really showing you what they are comfortable with, but it shouldn't be the automatic, right?

Dr. Solone
And it doesn't happen overnight, right? Like, you put a plan in place, and it's not going to be this perfect system that changes behavior overnight, right? And a child needs to feel welcome in their classroom. They need to feel appreciated and loved and cared for, and like it's a safe space for them. So, those things are really important also, and, and, yeah, they.. I'm seeing here in the chat too, the behavior support plans in place, but we still get comments about interrupting in class, and that just brings me to the point of in with special education and students who are receiving special education services. Our kids are policed way more diligently than other kids. If you looked at a student with an IEP versus another student in a classroom who didn't have an IEP, oftentimes you see behaviors that are not so different, but the kid with the IEP has a behavior support plan for the same exact behavior that somebody else doesn't even have an IEP, and it's just expected that that's the norm for for a handful of kiddos in your class, so I really want to bring that up, because there is a lot of like over monitoring, and then over correction, instead of sometimes just letting kids be kids, right?

Lindsay
Right, and I kind of touched on, you know, the whole time, right? You really been talking about what parents need to be aware of, but even more specifically, you know, I'd love to talk about, so if we're sitting in an IEP and the team is saying, you know, this can't happen because, you know, it's just not appropriate, your child has, you know, A, B, and C behaviors, you know, what can parents say, and I say that, knowing that it's a really naive sort of statement, because we could, we could prep for our IEPs for a year, we can do everything right, we can sit down, we get everything laid out, and and the district can say whatever they want, you know, that's that is why we're talking today. I mean, Dr. Solone and I talked before, and we want to make sure that everyone realizes we know this is not the norm, I mean, you know, you know, you, you work all over the state, we know, and that's why we want to talk about it. So, at least parents, because when you only hear one narrative, you know you really lose what it is supposed to be if it's done right, which you know really sadly very rarely is. You know, when you look at the numbers, so when I say, what should we say when you know we're going into the room knowing that it might not make any difference, but it's really about going in there and making your case, you know? I mean, if you decide to go further, if you decide to, you know, go to mediation, if you, you know, are going to be moving and you want everything in your IEP, whatever it might be, it's about going in, asking the right questions, you know, and, and really making them respond right in writing, so it is very clear what they're saying and why.

Dr. Solone
Yeah, gotta, gotta get that paper trail.

Lindsay
Yep.

Dr. Solone
And you know it's probably easiest for that.

Lindsay
Yeah.

Dr. Solone
But you know, if I always come back to why. Why do you think my child's doing this? Have you done? Have you taken data? What is the data telling you? Is there any data you need me to take at home? Do you need any suggestions? If there's a plan in place, it's still not working, do. Have we done a functional behavior assessment yet? You can request that as a parent. You can request that evaluation for an FBA if you want one. And you really, I cannot stress enough how important it is to have a positive behavior support plan in place if there are behavioral concerns. If that's not in place, get it in place, because if there's a need in behavior, there should be a behavior support plan, and I keep saying that, because there's so many kids I see that don't have that, even though they need it, and it's a common complaint from teachers, and it's being used against the student as justification for more restrictive setting, but it's not documented in the IEP, so make sure it's in there. Make sure the present levels under behavior is really clearly written in a, in a way that is student-centered.

Lindsay
I was just going to say, because even if you do have a behavior support plan, they are not all made equally, just like you know, anything in life, and so to make sure just because they have a behavior support plan, and you know you're still seeing behaviors, maybe we need to also look at how the interventions, you know, what are we doing, how can we change things up, that is what behavioral intervention, it's not, you know, it's not just let's try this and nothing else is working, it really should be like everything child-led and trying something different, and something that works today is not necessarily going to work tomorrow for some kids.

Dr. Solone
And I have to say here too, really quickly that oftentimes I also see behavior or the work is too hard as one of the reasons why a behavior could be occurring, and I want to push people to think that could it possibly be because the work is too easy, and the student is constantly getting the same easy work and getting frustrated, and I don't see that as much, because I think the general assumption around disability is often that things are too hard, we need to make them easier, but that's not always the case, we see this time and time again, especially with students with autism, who are constantly getting these repeat, recycled, rote kind of skill building practice, and we see them, you know, when you give a different modality, they are able to access way beyond what people expect, and so, when you think back, like, what is the reason the students doing this really want to push people to think about not just work is too hard and they're trying to get out of it, but maybe it's just not rigorous enough. Absolutely, working.

Lindsay
Okay, I was gonna say we should move on to myth two. So, academic achievement is a prerequisite for inclusion. Yeah, Dr. Salone, do you... let's just, you know, start with our... you know, let's lay the groundwork here. Do you have to have a certain test scores to be in a gen ed classroom?

Dr. Solone
No, no. And no, well, so many school districts think that you do. So many administrators think that you do. Think you cannot be on modified curriculum unless you are in a self-contained mod severe SDC, for example. That is not the case. You don't need any type of test score. You don't have to be meeting grade level standards to be included in a general education classroom. Actually, so much data and research these days that suggests that students with intellectual disabilities and more significant support needs thrive and excel when they are in those settings. So, no, that is not that is not accurate.

Lindsay
You do not have to earn your way into a gen ed classroom, right? And also, when you were talking this, and I, my thought left me as you were finishing up the last thing you said, but it is relevant here as well, that whereas sometimes maybe the work is actually too easy, it also might not be accessible exactly. It's not really easy, but if it's not accessible, right, you know, obviously can bring out behaviors that can bring out, you know, a child not being able, you know, to keep up, whatever it might be, these, these kind of myths that we're hearing, it might actually usually is on the other side of things, right? Things aren't being made so that our students can, or any, you know, all students can access what's happening.

Dr. Solone
And I love what Allison said here in the chat, the work is too hard. The correct teaching learning methods haven't been identified. Exactly.

Lindsay
Right.

Dr. Solone
So yeah, if we could reframe people's thought around that to exactly what Allison said, that the teaching and learning methods have not yet been identified, right, exactly, that's exactly right.

Lindsay
And she, I think Allison also asked, Can you define modified curriculum in this context?

Dr. Solone
Yeah, so modified curriculum, there are two different kind of camps. One being modified curriculum is just curriculum that is not meeting, is not, is curriculum designed to support students that are not working towards grade level standards. So, if your student is in third grade, then the expectation traditionally would be that they're working towards third grade level standards, and by the end of third grade, they would be meeting those third grade level standards. If a student is not and is pretty far below third grade level in academic areas, they might have modified curriculum that allows them to work on curriculum aligned with grade level standards, but not be expected to reach those full standards by the end of their grade. For example, there's another camp that thinks that modified curriculum is is a kind of a box curriculum that's a modified set that you would see, like in a STC classroom, like unique learning systems would be an example of a modified curriculum.

Lindsay
Right. Well, and that kind of leads to the next thing that I was going to ask is, How can school teams really design a class so a student with intellectual disability gains a meaningful education in that gen ed classroom, even if they are grade levels behind?

Dr. Solone
Yeah, it's so much easier these days than it used to be, because we have so many great tools, the Common Core connectors, which we've talked about here quite a bit, the dynamic learning maps, these are all tools that we can use to see how we can adapt curriculum, how we can change the learning targets, and that's really what modifications to the curriculum do, accommodation accommodations provide different access points, modifications change the learning target while still keeping aligned with the gen ed standards, so you can design an inclusive classroom that supports the needs of many universe learners by first having a universally designed classroom, really thinking about universal design principles, and how students can access the learning, not just for kids with IEPs, but for all students. If we can start with a baseline UDL, Universal Design for Learning baseline in a classroom, then what we need to adapt is very little for students with more significant support needs. Universal design for learning principles allow you to, you know, provide content in multiple modalities, provide access to showing what you know for kids in multiple ways. So, if a student thrives in auditory processing and really remembers everything, then maybe you know taking a test is not the best demonstration of what they know, so you maybe want to ask them, or their verbal skills are really high, then you might want to ask them the questions instead of expecting them to, you know, read the questions and answer on a multiple choice test, right? We might want to give kids multiple ways to to learn the different topics by listening, by engaging hands on, by reading, by watching videos, right, thinking about many different modalities for learning and demonstrating what you know, and then always thinking about access to, but you really, you look at the standards, you see, okay, what are the essential skills that that kids need to learn in order to eventually meet this standard, and how can I change the learning targets in this lesson to meet the needs of the students that are working at different learning targets in the context of this one lesson, right? So it is, so if you're working on, I don't know, what's a good example, anything that comes to mind, fractions, fractions. If you're working on that, that was what popped in my mind too. We're just doing some homework, so that's in my mind. If you're working on fractions, say you're doing fractions in a fourth grade classroom and they're doing unlike denominators and it seems really complicated, but what do you have with fractions? You have, well, fractions, it's a very, it's a very useful skill for us. We need to know how to divide things into parts, and that's really what the foundation of fractions is. It's, how do you divide things into parts. How do you make a whole with parts? How do you identify parts of a whole? Right, and so that's you can work on that in the context of a fractions lesson, but not be working on changing the denominator and having like denominators and all that stuff, improper fractions, all that stuff, right, but in fractions you also have, you know, every operation, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, so we can be working on those skill sets too. There's also a lot of number identification, so if a student's just still working on number identification, but you can identify the numbers and the fractions, maybe the students, you know. Reading the numbers, identifying the numbers on the board, when the teacher is going through the problem. Right, there's so many different creative ways that we can really support all learners in the context of a gen ed classroom. And then, in gen ed classrooms, what I love to see, I love to see station teaching, I love to see lots of different types of learning happening, and not just say it and spray it. Model of lecture, you listen like a perfect student in your seat with your hands crossed, and then I tell you what to do, and then you do it on a worksheet. We're really moving away from that, although that still definitely does happen a lot.

Lindsay
Well, and even when some teachers do move away from that, they still can't envision how that helps all learners when really what they're doing is, you know, it's really the beginning of that, and then they just really see how it's possible.

Dr. Solone
And gen ed teachers don't have a good example of what to expect or what we're expecting when we're talking about inclusion, so oftentimes gen ed teachers have this assumption that they're expected to get all of their students in their class to grade level, no matter what their IEP says, and that's not always the case. And so, sometimes giving them that permission can be really helpful too, and also giving them examples of what it might look like to have a strong, inclusive classroom. I met with a couple teachers a couple weeks ago, and they were really worried that they weren't doing a good job with inclusion, and they were showing me all the modifications that they'd made, and how they had adapted the curriculum, and how the students were participating, and I was like, you know, this is fantastic, this is your first year doing this. This is fantastic, and they were shocked to hear that. And I said, you have to understand what this offers students as a compared to in an SDC. We have a lot of really well-meaning SDC teachers and special education classrooms that are wonderful, but we don't have access to the curriculum in the same way that gen ed classrooms do, nor do as special educators, and I was one, don't have the same training in the content as gen ed teachers do, and so gen ed teachers often tend to be reminded of that, so they can see actually how beneficial it is for students with many different needs in their classrooms, which is exactly what Carrie just said, right? Like, we need to make the impact of the university and certification programs, right? We need to make impact there, so we can change how they approach the issue, and I know that is in pro, that's in process. It's something I know you've been involved with. One of the hardest parts about that is oftentimes it's hard to get good examples for pre-service teachers to see, and so we can be, you know, as far all of the special education credential education specialist credential programs that I know of in California right now, teach inclusion, teach UDL. Our gen ed teacher training programs all really, really push UDL, and have for the last like 1011, 12 years. And so our teachers coming out, they have that training in the background, but in practice, if that's not what they have seen with their student teaching, or if it's not the style of the school, like what the norm is of the school, things change really quickly from what teachers have learned to what they actually implement in practice, because they don't have always the most helpful support models or resources.

Lindsay
Right. Right. I do want to hit on, because I see there's another question from Evie. Two things that you said that I just want to really underscore, right, that you don't have to keep up to be in gen ed, right? Everything that Dr. Salone just talked about, it is about learning in your own way with the class, in whatever way you are learning, that is true, like Universal Design for Learning, and there shouldn be any pressure about that, right? Because you, it should be designed, should be being the key phrase, so that you are, you are involved with everything happening, but learning exactly where you are, and that you don't have to close the gap, which Dr. Palinka said something a couple weeks ago when we were talking, and you know, she, she really was driving that home, that it shouldn't be the expectation, I mean, the goal for many, definitely great, you can close that gap, but for some kids it's not going to be possible, and that again is not, that should not be a barrier into gen into gen ed, so you know, really important, because it's not something that we really hear the opposite a lot, so that's definitely something to remember. One more question from Evie: How do you feel about a preschooler having goals on CBC Words for their transition meeting into kindergarten, but they haven't even been exposed to sight words nor CVC words yet? Would those goals be considered unrealistic?

Dr. Solone
Yeah, that's. Really good question, that's interesting. That would be a goal that's aligned with the gen ed standards, that's for sure. And I think, as a mom or dad, you know, parents, you all know your child best, so if you think it's too lofty of a goal, then have that conversation, but the team might be doing giving you a goal like that, because it is aligned with the gen ed standards, which they're supposed to do, so there's, and which is a good sign. It's a good sign if you're seeing goals that are aligned with the kindergarten standards, if you're moving into kindergarten, because that is what we would want to see at first, and now, how many CBC words and all that stuff would be a good question to ask, but yeah, having those high expectations is a good thing for sure, and and I want to also just be very frank that not meeting IEP goals can also be used as justification why IEP teams wish they shouldn't be, but I've seen it many times where I not meeting IEP goals is justification for removal from less restrictive to more restrictive setting.

Lindsay
We, yeah, again, we talked about this recently with Doctor Blanca, is, you know, education advocate, and that you're supposed to be making progress, they can use that, but then you have to also look at it's not always so the child's fault, right, like what kind of support, and that's what I was thinking, even with Evie, you can write in the supports, which I know you've said a lot, you can write in the supports, the prompt levels, whatever that might be, into the goals, so then it's something you're comfortable with to make sure that, okay, we're going to go for this, but to make sure that you know she has these supports in place that can make her successful as well.

Dr. Solone
And if you know those supports, yeah, I can't stress enough writing those in, because then the IEP team can't just say, oh, if they didn't need it, they have to say, did they need it in these conditions, right? And if, if not, okay, but if you're not implementing it in those conditions, then that's on them, not the child, right?

Lindsay
So, you know that the academic achievement, you know, getting to the end of this myth. What do parents say, you know, in this situation? You know, if they're getting their IEP team, and this is used as an excuse, what? What can parents prepare or say in that situation?

Dr. Solone
So, if academic achievement is used to as a justification for why a team wants to change the setting or not do inclusion, then I would just remind IEP team that academic achievement is not, is not a prerequisite for inclusive education. In fact, we know the research says that students with extensive support needs, who are on modified curriculum, who are learning, you know, at the grade level, thrive in those settings and make far more progress when all is said and done, compared to peers in special education self-contained classrooms. Keep reminding the team of that, give them research, send them articles, so that that's our justification. It's not, oh, we haven't done this before, and we don't know how to support the student, but really it's giving them evidence. This is how this is the difference. Here's the comparison of success long term. I want this for my child. So, how are we going to make that happen? You know, and really just encouraging the team to think differently about learning, think about access, access, access. If we thought more about access in education, we would have a whole lot less students with IEPs.

Lindsay
I really good point. It's a really good point, and you also said something that's really, I think, the fear of this is really about that they don't, they don't have the experience, and even knowing how to start modifying maybe a Common Core State Standard for child, and that's really where it comes from. So, they would rather, you know, send them to a different class, and so that needs to change, right?

Dr. Solone
And, and it's hard. I just want to...

Lindsay
Yeah, it's that is, it is not an easy thing. Yeah, it is. It is a major culture change, all of it.

Dr. Solone
It is.

Lindsay
That needs to happen, right? A major culture change that needs to happen, right? Because it can't, because you know, the - we all know it's hard, but I also don't want to hear that as an excuse anymore, either. It's like it's hard. Let's work on it. Together, but our kids can't wait for that, right? They're losing year after year, so it's time. Let's figure it out. It's a perfect segue to myth number three. The school doesn't do inclusion right. Where's my X, Donna? Where's the X? The school doesn't do inclusion, right? There you go, there it is. Because this, this myth transcends inclusion, because way too many of us have heard those words, right? We don't do that here, and sometimes it can even really sound convincing. So, why is that? Why is that a myth?

Dr. Solone
It's a myth, because every single, so every district has to offer a continuum of services, placement options for their students. Sorry, a continuum of placement options, your least restrictive environment, that continuum, that continuum where a child falls is is different depending on the child, right? I think most children should be in Jenin, and I think that that is most students' least restrictive environment personally. So, when schools say we don't do this, say, but I thought you had to offer a continuum of placement options, and I thought that each child's individual needs are taken into consideration, right, and if we're looking at the individual child's needs, you know, when we're doing an LRE assessment, which is really nuanced and ambiguous, and oftentimes it asks, like, can the child's needs be met in gen ed, yes or no, at least in LAUC, that's what it sounds like if you say no, then it's like, can the child's needs be met in gen ed with supports and services in place? I mean, that's really broad, and most of the times the answer is yes. So, if they say no, I would say, okay, well, what supports and services have we tried in that setting yet before determining that this child needs a more restrictive environment?

Lindsay
Right, I love that you keep coming back to that, because that really is instead of jumping to this, is you know where your child should be, whatever that be, based on the diagnosis, based on, you know, what, what have we done to see if it's going to work, and by the way, again, if it doesn't work, let's look at what we tried, and you know, and how might we change that, change that up, and try, but I, and also I feel like that we don't do that is is kind of code for we don't want to pay for that, or we don't know how to do that, so also thinking about those things, so I mean, again, about you just gave some great tips about how parents should respond, and in the back of your mind, if you're thinking, well, how are they approaching this, right? Like, we don't know how to do that, again, it's like, well, if we, if there isn't a plan, then who can we bring in that can help.

Dr. Solone
Yeah, remind schools, too, that these are conversations being had outside of school districts, they're larger conversations, they're bills that are we're working on to get through legislation, we're, you know, it's it's it's a really big movement, and the more research and data we have to pack it, which is coming and is there, the more parents are going to be asking, so if not now, it's coming down the pipes, and there will be more pressure on schools to be providing inclusive options more more widely than they are now. So they're not willing to address it now, then they're going to have to down the line. So it's got to start somewhere.

Lindsay
And I would say if you are not, maybe you think you're the only parent that is thinking about that. I will just say, you know, talk to other parents, and if there's a lot of you in the same boat, right, IEPs can keep you so isolated, right? And you can't talk about it. If there's, you know, if maybe you had a settlement, you're, you, you sign some things, say you can't talk about it. I mean, it's really all designed, so you don't really know what else is going on, so organize, get with your other parents, find out what's going on, try to be collaborative, but then build something within your district, right? Start wherever you can, maybe that's starting within your school, and then you can tackle your district, about really the parents coming, sitting at the table with the people who are making decisions, talking at school board meetings, you know, start really trying to bring light to the reality, because so much gets normalized, and people, even you know, well-meaning allies, you know, they've seen this for so long, and they, you know, you don't even think about it, so start, you know, and I know many parents have done this again, so I don't mean to naively say that, you know people haven't been advocating for so long that there is power in numbers and speaking publicly, yeah, while trying to work with everyone, but also not letting people look away, right? And it doesn't always work, but you just keep trying, keep trying, and yet every parent here understands, right. We all know that few things happen on the first co round.

Dr. Solone
And it feels so lonely going through the process, right. And to Carrie's point, yeah, privacy issues, you want to reach out and get the phone number of a kid in the class, and you can't because of privacy issues, or met with so many, so much red tape, and so it really, it does take quite a bit of capacity to be able to even have the bandwidth to, to push, to fight, to collaborate, to organize. It does take a lot of bandwidth, but what is just one thing that you can do to take a baby step forward? What is just the one person you can connect with to join in this this journey together, right? You don't have to go at it alone, and the more experiences that you can have as evidence or as knowledge, the better. I know my mom, I have a younger sister that Lindsay spoke to earlier, or spoke about earlier, who has cerebral palsy and intellectual disability, and going through her entire general education, or Jenna, her educational path. Yeah, it is very isolating, but my mom, the she got all our information from other parents from talking to other parents, and it was so much harder when my sister was younger to find those people, because of all the reasons that you said, Carrie, and, and more, and so really just find, find, find one other parent that you can connect with, listen to them, listen to you, and strategize, you know, and then when you feel like you have bandwidth, find another, find another team. Yeah, start building and growing, and yeah, if you go through a settlement agreement or anything like that with a school, oftentimes you do have to sign an NDA, and then you can't talk about the stuff you've gone through, right? So talk to people before that happens.

Lindsay
So true, and that I would actually, yeah, I would love to do. We need to do an entire event about really parent organization. It's something that's near and dear to my heart, and in our district it started with me and another parent, right? And then now it's become, you know, many, many, many voices, but it does. It's just you find we find our allies however they can, and it doesn't mean that you think it's two people. What are we going to do? But then there are more. There are more. If you are on this call, you are definitely not the only one. I also wanted to point out that a previous conversation that one of previous event that we had done was all about how to write inclusion into your IEP goals, and so Brittany is going to share that recording link in the chat window, so you should definitely check it out, because you'll get an idea of how you can work inclusion into your IEP in many ways. Dr. Sloan has touched on some of those today, but she gave, you know, amazing advice about really how to write inclusion into your IEP goals, so you should definitely check that out as well. And this also brings us to myth number four, which is a particularly disturbing one. Your child won't get anything out of it. There's, there's a lot to unpack with this one, so I don't know. Where do you want to start?

Dr. Solone
Yeah, I mean, I hear that a lot, and I hear it oftentimes from, I hear, I hear both from parents and from gen ed teachers the most, and again I think it's because we have worked presumptions around what learning looks like and what it means to get something out of something, and also incorrect or just limited knowledge about access and how to provide access to students who may not learn in a typical fashion, and so I mean kids get so much out of inclusive classrooms most the time, and it's not inclusion if a child's just in the back at the table and doesn't have access to the curriculum, right? Like that's not true inclusion. When we're talking about inclusion, we're talking about really meaningful inclusion, where that is this child's classroom, the gen ed classroom is their classroom their peers? Are their peers, they're not on a different roster, they're not out of the classroom for the majority of the day, they're not siloed at the back table with an aid working on something totally different, right? That's not inclusion, that's not what we're talking about when we talk about inclusion. When we talk about inclusion, we're talking about a child who has access to the gen ed curriculum, who can engage in the lessons, but at their own skill level, and working on their own learning targets that are aligned to what the class is working on. It means that they have their peers, that they have access to the social op. Opportunities that they're having relationships with their peers that are developing and growing, and sometimes that takes a long time, but if you're not in those spaces, those will, that will never take place, right? So, yeah, children get way more out of it than we think, especially when it's a nourish and nurturing love. loving, caring environment where they feel like they can take risks, grow, learn, thrive, and yeah, I mean, I'll just give you one example. It's one of my favorite examples. Had a student who came to me in third grade, and he, his mom said, you know, he's been in SDC since kindergarten, he has an intellectual disability, he, his speech has basically plateaued since kindergarten, he can say his name, Lion King, and I love you, and that's pretty much it, and his sister's name, and so he came in third grade, and there were a lot of challenging behaviors at first. He wasn't used to the setting, he wasn't used to the environment, he was, you know, acclimating, like we like we all need to do when we're doing something new or in new spaces with new people. By the first month, he was saying many more words. He had peers all around him that were modeling conversational skills that were doing things that he was really motivated by, motivated to chime in and figure out, how do I communicate this? By month three, he was speaking in full sentences, and I'm not saying this is going to happen every time, right? This is just one example, but by month three, he was speaking in full sentences, saying all of his wants and needs. He, his behavior had improved drastically. He had tons of friends in the classroom. He was a really social little guy, and it was incredible. Now, someone could have said, "Well, what's he going to get from a gen ed classroom? He's, you know, still learning basic sight words and isn't yet reading, and you know, is really struggles with fundamental skills. He got so much out of that classroom, not just social skills, not just communication skills, also academic skills, life skills, and he was included, and it wasn't just a positive experience for him, but it was for those other kids in the classroom too, who totally fell in love with him and were his greatest allies.

Lindsay
I guess that's the perfect way again to underline who benefits from inclusion,

Dr. Solone
I think everybody, and the teachers, the teachers that I've co-taught with, the gen ed teachers, and teachers have worked with so many of them shared, like they, they learn so much from the students that they get every single year, and as much as it might be challenging to figure out sometimes what seems like a puzzle to figure out the learning style and what's going to work best, it helps us all grow and think differently.

Lindsay
Right? And who, well, well, and on that, I have to, I might have already said this in another event, but one of, like, really emotional moment that I had this year was when a gen ed teacher of my daughter's called and said that she feels like she has been made a better teacher for having my daughter, and actually my daughter's aide, and who, you know, is a behavioral aid, but really worked with the teacher who was so open, and she said having learning what she did through what she had to, you know, kind of change in her mind and with her classroom has made her a better teacher, and you know, after after years of only hearing that from teachers who didn't want my daughter in their class for all of these myths that we're talking about, and this is one of the best teachers, like, for any student that you could imagine, that was a really.. it's really important when you know somebody sees your child. So, and I think that brings us to.. oh, I was going to ask, too, we said, you know, who can benefit? So, who can't? Is there anyone who can't benefit, other than, you know, well, I guess I will let you answer that. Is there anybody who can't benefit from inclusion?

Dr. Solone
I think, I mean, we have to. There are students who communicate that a different setting is better for them, and I think we have to honor that. So, while I'm a huge cheerleader for inclusion. I also recognize that sometimes, and some students need different, different things. That's why we have a continuum of services, but inclusion, in my perspective, should be the expectation and the rule rather than the exception, because I do think the majority of kids do. And can thrive in inclusive settings, like I shared earlier. We had, I've had students in the past who, who show us that even with all these great supports in place, even with an aid, even with really great parent, family, school relationships, and tons of communication, the students still communicating through behavior that that is not the setting for them right now, but that doesn't mean that that's not the setting for them long term, it's just not right now, and so we have to listen to our students when they're communicating that once all those supports are in place, and so we'll say there are some students who, who need other things, and that's okay, but the majority of students can benefit, I think, from inclusion.

Lindsay
Excited thing, which brings us to myth number five. So, interventions can't occur in the gen ed classroom. No, and I think I think we were kind of talking about this before, and I think this could be a tough one for some parents, because many of our kids, they need a lot of interventions, and pushin does carry some perceived limitations. So, I'd love for you to give us some examples of various interventions or therapies, and how they can work in the gen ed classroom.

Dr. Solone
Yeah, so definitely, like in elementary school, we are doing interventions often in gen ed classrooms anyway, or we have specific intervention times. Most schools do. It might be like no new teaching time, where we do interventions, whatever it is. Most schools have some format where they have intervention embedded, and so interventions can happen in gen ed classrooms when kids get older, like if you're going to do a reading intervention, that might be more tricky, and we might need to be figuring out more creative solutions, like what period could we be doing that intervention to allow for the student to get intervention, but also be exposed to the rich text that they're discussing in English, in terms of services, if you're talking about speech, OT, PT, all of those services, majority of those services can be pushin, and I, it really frustrates me to be honest, how much of those services are pulled out, and I know oftentimes as parents we feel like it is best for our child if they get pull out services, it's one on one, it feels special, it feels like it's, it's the best possibility, but I can tell you when you push it in and students can get access to what they need in the natural setting, like if the OT pushes in when they're doing some type of, they're making something in class and needing to use scissors. The OT comes in to help with cutting during a natural time, where the kids are cutting rather than pulling them out, maybe during math, then they're missing math instruction to go to the OTs room to cut with scissors. It just doesn't make sense to me, and it's also really disruptive to the student's schedule, oftentimes, and when we're talking about students who oftentimes, not often, but some students who need help with transitions, and that can be an area that's challenging for behavior, then we are creating all these needs for new transitions, that's also really tricky for speech. Speech can be pushin if it's articulation. If you have artic goals, then yeah, pull outs great. Pull out is great, especially if we can do it at a time that makes sense, and students not missing anything. But if it's like pragmatic social skills, schools with the speech therapist, let her let her meet the child at recess, if she can push in during recess, or doing small group work, and support with the exchanges in those natural settings. I mean, that's great. That is so much better than these isolated therapy rooms, where then this child has to go generalize the skill out in the world anyway.

Lindsay
I also think a big, a big reason that sometimes that happens is, well, at least our experience, and a lot of other people I know, with schedule, it's like, and the teachers didn't want it in the classrooms because they didn't want it to distract, right, going back to some of the previous things we talked about, and it's like we have too many students, we just have to pull them when we can, and so another thing to maybe, you know, we started really addressing in our IEPs, I know a lot of other parents have, of like, I don't want my child pulled out during, if they are going to pull out, if that's, you know, but you didn't want them pulled out during core classes, right? I know that can be a struggle too, because I mean a lot of schools, elementary schools especially, they don't have - they don't want to do a master schedule, that seems like a lot, and that was a huge reason, right, that they wanted to do that too, because the teachers didn't want to have the distraction, and there also wasn't enough organization on the other side.

Dr. Solone
And that's a very real practical issue, right. And a lot of our service providers have huge caseloads, and so, yeah, it sometimes is not feasible, given that the certain constraints in a district, but the more we ask, the more likely things will change down the line, exactly. And the more likely then that our teams are going to be more careful in considering when they're pulling and considering like when they could be potentially pushing in

Lindsay
100% and I also think the thing to remember of everything we're saying is that nothing, it shouldn be all or nothing, right? I mean it's that this is the I in an IEP is individualized, you don't have to be in a special ed class all day without leaving. You don't have to be in a gen ed class all day without leaving. If that's not what works for your child, so it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Dr. Solone
No, no, it's so nuanced. It's so.. and I think that's where we get hung up a lot. It's thinking there are rules around, like these kids go here, these kids need pull out, these kids, but it is so much more. We need to be more flexible with our thinking and really think about what is going to make the most sense given the structure of the school and the logistics, and given my child's needs first and foremost.

Lindsay
Exactly, absolutely. And I'm looking at the time, and unfortunately it's time to start wrapping up. Thank you so much, Dr. Slid. I know, I mean, we could, I mean, I could talk to you for months at a time. I always say that, but it's such a pleasure. And there are so many things that that we all need to remember from the things that you were saying today. So, instead of myths, we're going to leave you with five mantras that you need to keep repeating to yourself, regardless what placement you choose. Right, behavior is a form of communication. You don't have to earn your way into gen ed. You don't have to close the gap in gen ed. That's not the point. You don't have to keep up to be in gen ed, and it doesn't have to be all or nothing, you're not choosing, you know. Do I go this way? Do I go this way? It can be. It is supposed to be what works for your child, and I know, again, that's not always how it goes, but that is what it's supposed to be. And that's what you should be, you know, working for whatever is working for your child. That's what that IEP should be about. And those reminders, those five things, they go way beyond IEPs. Obviously, we can take these into everyday life. So, thank you, Dr. Stallone, for these words to live by, always. So, thank you again to Dr. Stallone for unleashing the myth crusher. We're gonna have to come up with a fun little animation for that next time, and for reminding us that fears do not equal facts, so thank you to Iris and Brittany in the chat, and especially to all of you for stopping by Undivided Live. Have a beautiful weekend. See you later. Bye.

Lindsay
That's it for our very first episode of Undivided Voices. I hope you found as much hope and possibility in Dr. Salone's insights, as I did, inclusion is a human right, and it demands action, not just ideas. Let's build a better, more just future together. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to subscribe, so you don't miss future episodes. And if you want more resources and support for your family, visit us@www.undivided.io Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you next time on Undivided Voices. Bye.

Transcribed by otter.ai