Behind the Scenes with a Former Special Education Administrator

Ever wonder what’s really said behind closed doors in special education? IEP meetings don’t tell the whole story. To help us understand how decisions are really made — and what families can do to make sure their child’s needs are truly heard — we sat down with Daphne Zacky Bold, Ed.S., a Licensed Educational Consultant, Licensed Educational Psychologist, and special education advocate with nearly 20 years of experience supporting students with diverse learning needs.

Watch the full video above, or catch our recap of the highlights in our article 6 Ways to Make a Difference in Your School District — According to a Former SpEd Administrator.

Hey, everybody, welcome to Undivided Live. I'm Lindsay Crain, and I head the Content and Community teams at Undivided, and for my visual description, I'm a female with a short brown bob, dark frame glasses, a white shirt with pink flowers and purple vines, and I'm sitting in a green office with bookcases to my right. Undivided is a digital platform and service that supports families raising neurodivergent and disabled children. We help families navigate the complex systems that our kids rely on, like public benefits such as Regional Center, Medi-Cal and IHSS, private insurance and the educational system. We all know special education is imperfect. Even with protective laws in place, too frequently our children are excluded, expectations are too low, ableism is rampant, districts are understaffed or employees are not properly supported or trained, parents are gaslit, and our kids are not provided an equitable, meaningful, accessible education.

Not all the time, but too often. We also have incredible teams working with our kids against all of these odds, and their needs are frequently not met due to budget constraints or competing priorities, and if we aren't supporting our staff, our kids will feel that gap. So today we'll be discussing some of the biggest barriers in special education, why some of these decisions are made, the realities that administrators face while trying to implement change, and how parents and districts can work together to make things better for our kids. Here to take us behind the scenes of how decisions really get made in special education is Daphne Zachy Bold, a former special education administrator, educational psychologist and special education advocate with nearly 20 years of experience supporting learners with diverse needs. Welcome, Daphne. Thank you for being here today, and I should say at such short notice, because our original guest was unable to make it this morning, so we are incredibly grateful to Daphne for canceling some of her plans and stepping in, so thank you so much, Daphne. Of course. Thank you, Lindsay. I'm so happy that I'm able to be here also, and hopefully we'll be able to provide parents with some helpful insight into how districts... what's going on behind the scenes, and really, more than anything, what I really hope to bring to parents here is how to have success in communicating with the schools and school districts moving forward. So, hopefully this can be a... We can make it a positive conversation towards working with our schools as well.

-- Absolutely. What are we going to do? How can we all come together so our kids can get what we need? That is 100% why we're here today. And you see that QR code on your screen? If you scan it, it allows you to set up a free Undivided account so you can bookmark all of those articles and read them whenever you're ready. You can build your own library of resources, and there's a lot to discover. So with that, let's get a peek behind the SpEd curtain. So, all right, Daphne, parents... To state the obvious, parents often feel an us versus them in IEPs and in everyday issues, so why do both parents and districts feel like they're constantly on the defensive? And then we'll talk about how we can change that. That's a great question. And I think definitely there are two sides to the feelings regarding how... the defensiveness of that, of how they... the district’s side and the parent’s side. The beginning, when you first did the intro on this, you mentioned how parents feel gaslit a lot and how ableism is happening in the schools a lot, and the implicit bias, and I believe that there is a lot of these things that are happening in the school districts and I think... but there's also, as you said in the... in your intro as well, there are some really great teams out there too that are available to support families, so, yeah, I think that what we're really seeing and what we're really... we are lacking in... with our school teams and our families is transparency in the end.

The school districts that are... the school teams that parents feel like are not... are gaslighting them or are not being honest with them about information, that they can't trust, it's really because they aren't sharing information with the families about their child's needs. I think at the end of the day, parents want to know what is going on with their child. They understand that not every day is going to be perfect, right, for their kid when they drop them off at school, but if something is imperfect, they want to know about that, and I think that on the other side of that coin is that school districts and school teams, depending on the administration that they have, the school team is often sometimes maybe afraid to share, and to share with the parent what is going on. The school policy systems or the district's systems in place may not be supporting a transparent, communicative information flow between the parents and the staff members, so I think that there are some school teams out there where, one, if they did want to be more transparent and communicate more with parents, sometimes I do think that they aren't doing so because they're afraid to do so, so I think we can talk about it a little bit more as we keep going on, but I think that transparency is a huge part of this problem. Yeah, and I do... I want to... There's a couple things you said that I want to dig into a little further, but... so, I guess that would probably be your answer, because I really want to follow up with what is... What's one way that districts can start improving that us versus them and redirect special education back to supporting students as IDEA intended? So, is that... is transparency your answer for that? Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think at... If districts at...

If we could be sharing... If we could be more transparent on both sides, but especially on the district side, to avoid that us versus them mentality where the parents feel like they are sort of constantly at odds and having to fight to get their needs... to get their child's needs met, I think that many times, I think that the parents are feeling like they... One, they're not being shared, and so they're having to come at the school districts constantly with questions, and it turns into... Of course, we always say, context doesn't come through on messages, and a lot of the communications between school districts and families are via email, and so it can automatically become very combative between the... or can seem combative sometimes, when all a parent is doing maybe is asking a question about their child and then the district will then perceive that to be a threatening message, and they come back in a defensive way many times. And I think the very important part of IDEA and IEPs is that they’re legal requirements, right? As parents, we feel those are protections, but that can also then really create a defensive environment, which makes sense. People are careful. Maybe they're overly careful, from the district side and what they're sharing, And I do want to get into...

In a minute, I want to dig in a little about how we can communicate better, and how we can increase that transparency, but first, I also wanted to ask about the us versus them. What do you think... What is one thing that parents can do then to make special education more collaborative, because we're all part of this team, so how can parents help alleviate that feeling as well? Well, I think first of all, parents need to know that they have rights. We always say that over and over, and I think that sometimes parents forget or are so afraid to voice their rights, and they have rights to ask questions. They have rights to information, and then they shouldn't feel afraid to ask. I get a lot from parents, I'm afraid I'm going to upset the teacher and the... by asking for this, and the teacher is going to take it out on my kid. I can't tell you how many times I hear that, and it breaks my heart. It's... There should be no fear. Let's remove the barrier of fear from the parent to communicate and ask questions. They have the right to speak to the parent. They have the right... I mean, they have the right to speak with the school district, and with the teachers, with the staff, and ask questions, and they shouldn’t feel as though the district is going to come back with a lot of legal language or that they are going to take it out on their child really, is quite often what I see a lot of times, a lot of parents think, so I think what parents... So... and that's number one is that they shouldn't be afraid. They should know that they have the right to ask questions. They have the right to know what's going on. They have a voice. They know their child best when it comes to accommodations and their IEP... their child's IEP. They can speak up as much as they want. They should speak up as much as they want and have a part of that. I think that if the... it's really... I think the value is in the parents’ voice more than anything to support the transparency and the communication with the schools and the parents. 100%. And this...

Transparency is such a huge part of IEPs that... and school relationships actually, way beyond IEPs, like we've already been discussing, and the reality is that many parents have little idea of what happens during their child's school day, and it's made even harder if a child has communication challenges, and so way too often parents find out that many important things were happening during their child's school day that were never communicated. Anything from the mundane to maybe it was the first day that their child met a new friend, but their child can't tell them that, which is not a small thing, and so that lack of transparency just further erodes trust because it feels like our children's well-being is often sidelined to protect the district, and that feels like a scary place to send your child every day. So, just to kind of build on what you were talking about, Daphne, when and how should districts be communicating with parents? They should be communicating with the parents as much as they can, and of course, any time anything changes with their child’s IEP or an emergency situation arises, but as often as they can. Regarding IEP and goal progress, the district has requirements by law that they have to be sharing goal progress every time the progress monitoring for the school district comes out. I believe it's at a minimum of three times a year. However, it can happen as often as a parent wants it to happen, and that also is something that if a parent is feeling like they aren't getting communications from a school district or from their teacher or from a provider that is working with their child and weeks are going by and they're going, “I don't know what's going on in OT,” or, “Is he really getting the speech? I don't know.” I say, email. Email as much as you want and ask if you need to set up a weekly communication system, communication log, with the teachers, with the providers, do so, and whatever information it is that you feel like you need on a weekly or biweekly or monthly basis, you have the right to ask for it, and that can really, I think, go a long way with parents.

You also have the... Parents also have the right to sort of say what they want in that communication system and that communication log that's going back and forth, and also they have the right to have that being placed into their IEP as well to ensure that it is actually being followed through. Yeah, absolutely. We talk a lot about communication logs and how that... Because a phone call every day is difficult, but you know in the progress reports like you were saying, and I think the policy is that a district is only required for certain students to give progress reports when they have report cards, and then that varies per student, but if... I think for children, and I could be saying this wrong, so correct me, but for children on the alt assessment, then... well, no that's... Anyway... At minimum... At minimum they have to do it every time progress modeling goes out for all general education. Exactly, exactly., yes, which usually goes out with report cards, right? But like Daphne said, with your IEP that... it can be something different. It can be what your... what your child needs, but then there's all the stuff that happens in between progress reports that are the every day of, like, how is the social socialization going? How is... Are there health concerns? There’s a lot going on, so working with the team to get a communication log can be a... that everyone's agreeing at the IEP can be a great way to keep that communication going in a way that works for everybody. And it can be a lot less stressful as well, as we know that teachers are overwhelmed. They have a lot of students. They don't have a lot of hours in the day. Special ed teachers have IEP meetings they have to break out, so... they have to break out for, so by knowing that they have already a system in place of when they're going to be communicating with the parent regarding the child's needs, and that they know that the parent is expecting this every week, I think it reduces the stress on everybody at the table, and all year round. Yeah. And another big part of transparency or the lack thereof comes around aides, and a question we hear all the time: Why can't parents talk to aides?

I mean, is it really that big of a deal for parents to speak to the child's aides, say, when they're dropping off or picking up their child because where they might have the teacher one period a day or maybe even a couple times a week, depending on if you're on block scheduling, that aide is with them all the time, and they really know what's happening. So, what's the deal with the aides? That's a great question. I mean, yeah, why can't parents talk to the aides? I think that is definitely a question that parents are asking and that I ask constantly. The aide is usually the person, the adult, that is with that child throughout the day more than anybody else is. They have the biggest relationship with that child in many ways, depending, but they’re... They have a strong insight into what's going on all day with that child. Also, usually they do have those extra ten minutes at the end of the day to be able to just chat with the parent if need be. They don't have to, every day. But there is no reason why an aide cannot speak to a parent regarding the child. I mean, there's nothing in law that says that. You'll sometimes see districts have their policies, which maybe might be unofficial policies that they set in place, that... where they... or what they create policies, possibly with agency aides where they try to prevent communication between the parents and the aides. Districts are always coming at it... Districts are sort of like lawyers. I sort of like to look at it that way. They're kind of the... The big top... The administrators on the side of where the policies are coming from many times are just... They're afraid of any sort of a litigation that may come up if somebody says something wrong, and we're talking about children. We're talking about a person's child. So to prevent access to a parent to speak with the person who is with their child most of the day because they're afraid they're going to say something wrong and they're afraid they're going to get sued, really doesn't seem fair in a lot of ways to the parent or the child. I mean, we are... Rather than being... and that also speaks to the defensiveness of the school district that they're setting up this setting for a very defensive type interaction with the parents.

If we remove these barriers where parents would have more ability to talk with aides and with the staff that's supporting their children, I think that the anger and the defensiveness would reduce significantly. Absolutely. Because from a parent’s perspective, it's hard, even if... because what you're saying sounds logical, but from a parent's perspective, what it feels like is they're hiding what's happening during the day. What do they not want me to know? Right? It's a really nervous feeling to not... to feel like, nope, this person can't talk to you. It feels very managed. So it's... Yeah, it's... there's a lot of emotions that go into that. And I have to say another question with aides that we got a lot and we got some... we've received some with RSVPs is why can't IEPs... or, why can't aides attend IEPs? So what... Is that the same... Is that the same answer? I don't know. Exactly. That's the same answer. I mean, a parent can ask anybody to come to an IEP meeting that they would like to have come to the IEP meeting. So if a parent wants the aide to come to the IEP meeting, they have the right to ask for that. A district may say no, and I recommend to parents that they push back and they ask them if there is a policy in place that says that the aide can't go, and if so, that they provide it to them. There might be something... If there is an agency involved, there may be something in the contract with the agency, if it's an agency aide, where that... where the agency does not want their aides to be attending IEP meetings because they're already paying for the... another person from... the supervisor from the agency to attend. But there needs to be somebody on behalf of that, aide, whether it's the supervisor from the agency or the aide themself if they are district employed, they should be there at that IEP meeting to speak in regards to the student’s performance.

And I think what Daphne just said, too, is something we say over and over. We can't say it enough. If somebody is talking about a policy, ask to see it, because frequently the policies don't actually exist. It's become a normalized practice. So it's always fine. Just... You want to understand more. Can I see that policy so I can understand? And we are getting some questions here. Daphne, Joyniel asked, “Are they required to make an incident report every time there's an incident that has happened at school?” Yes, yes. They are required to make an incident report every time there's an incident. They are required to... The parent should be informed anytime there is an incident that happens at school regarding their child, and all too many times, this does not happen, and children come home at the end of the day and there will be a bruise or they'll hear from another parent that they saw something on the yard where their kid was pushed by somebody or something, and it is the... There is the responsibility of the district to inform the parents, to create an incident report. And if it doesn't... if they do not receive an incident report or they did not hear about an incident from the district, they... parents have the right to call for an emergency IEP meeting at any time to address the fact that the district is not informing them of incidences, especially safety concerns regarding their children. Right. Yeah. And I mean, another fear or... not fear, reality, I guess, is if we aren't communicating, then parents are going to ask a lot of questions and then with questions, then parents, right, then we get the label. We’re ‘that’ parent, right, which can sometimes mean that we have the audacity to ensure and ask and make sure that our children are okay, or that their IEP is being followed. So this is... it's kind of an ugly question that obviously varies, but it's something that a lot of parents talk about, right? How do many school teams and admins view parents? It's... that's a great question.

And I'm... I mean, I'm usually a glass half full type person, is probably how I always want to start an answer and always find the positive way, and I do... I want to believe and I still do believe that there are a lot of teams out there that really do and a lot of staff out there that really think the majority really do, deep down, have the best intention for the parents... for parents and for the children. I do think that sometimes, when there are a lot of maybe perceived needs on a school team side from a parent, -- I'm calling it perceived -- that you do find school teams that almost have a... they give a feeling that the parents have a sense of their entitlements, and you see that a lot sometimes with school teams, and that they feel that there is entitlement to the parents and that their expectation from the staff and from the school district is too high, sadly. But again, glass half full Daphne here really does believe that there are a lot of staff members out there and you... we all know them. We've all had our really great special ed teacher, right, who has been there and has been actually your advocate and that you've stayed friends with after so many years, and maybe they taught your child in second grade and now they're... now they're in 10th grade and they're still your person that you go to, right? I mean, they're... We all should be going into this profession because we really do want the best for children with needs and for families and to support them. Right. And if your child... or if you're working with somebody, there's somebody on your team that doesn't have those thoughts, it's just the reminder to parents, right, that it is your entitlement to have people follow the law, right? And so if you're thought of as entitled or you're asking questions or you're ensuring that things are in place, don't... It's easier to say... I know it's easier said than done, but don't allow yourself to be intimidated, right? Like Daphne said, your voice is important.

You are an equal part of that IEP team, and that's all year round, so if you are being treated like that ‘parent’ and I know everyone watching understands what that means, if you are in that situation then always try to put that collaborative hat on and hopefully other people will as well, but if they're saying, “Stop asking questions,” that's not going to happen, so... because at some level, many levels, we need this unity, right, that could really help what some parents view as really nightmarish and one of the worst parts of their year, which is IEP meetings. Oh yeah. So IEP meetings really bring that us versus them to a next level. I mean it can be really intimidating, like we've discussed, for parents, and sometimes it feels sometimes like it's that way by design. And even worse, it can feel like teams have a singular definition of success, and anything outside of that norm is unworthy of the same kind of investment, meaning maybe they don't want to give your child as many services because they couldn't benefit. I mean, I'm sure we've talked to lots of parents who’ve heard all kinds of terrible things that are really rooted in ableism. So how often do you think that IEP decisions are made from a place of implicit bias? I think that... It's a hard one. It's a hard one to say exactly what is causing the way that IEP teams are making their decisions, and if it's coming from a place of implicit bias or if it's coming from a place of lack of information and also lack of information specifically from their district, from the administrators in their districts that are not sharing and providing staff members with the appropriate information to make well informed decisions for children.

And I mean, I'm talking about staff developments to inform parents, what IEPs... the legal requirements of IEP. A lot of staff out there and within school aren't really quite aware of actually the law of IDEA entirely. They... all these... We say that they... the IEPs are sort of set up to make it difficult for parents. I can see how it feels that way. I think that probably some staff members feel like it's set up to make it difficult for them sometimes too, because they don't... a lot of people at that table, and sadly they don't know why these rules and why the IDEA came into place and why we are here to protect these students. Why we want to make sure that we have... that we discuss a child's strengths at an IEP, and not run into their weaknesses and their needs. There is a process, and I think that if people were more informed, staff were more informed, and again, this comes to... goes back to the district, the district needs to be providing more information to staff members, more training on implicit bias, more training on inclusivity, to... in order to create a more collaborative IEP meeting. We need to be honest about the fact there's implicit bias all over, right, obviously way beyond disability, and if districts and leadership are not addressing that, that's a huge issue. And then as a parent, when you're sitting in an IEP, I mean, I... countless families that I've heard, it's like, “Well, they said we... that my daughter doesn't get speech because she is non-speaking,” or, “Well, my... my son is a wheelchair user, so they said that he doesn't need any kind of PT, even though all the doctors said he needs to get out and he needs to be moved and stretched and...,” or the oldest one in the book, I guess, of like, “Well, your child has intellectual disability, so they can't be in gen ed. They can't keep up,” right? I mean, it's all these things that are... these decisions that aren't really... Well, not really. They're not based in fact or science or research. They are based in bias and normalized culture, what has become a normalized culture of discrimination. Yeah. Absolutely. It is a... Sadly, it is a normalized culture.

It can be a norm... It does seem that way, that it is a normalized culture of discrimination, and again, I mean, that is... I go back to district and the way the district sets up... sets up their system. I've seen some districts out there that really... their focus really is inclusivity. Their focus really is awareness and focusing on making sure that staff are aware of the different kinds of disabilities that are out there and the needs and not just the special ed teachers. I mean, this is the entire district, right? I mean, I think many times, it's something to sort of... you can tell a lot by a district if discussions on inclusivity, discussions on discrimination, if they're only happening with the special ed group and they're not happening district wide, that's... that tells you right there that they're not really... This isn’t a culture where they are trying to support students, all students in all kinds of environments, because if they're segregating the way that they're disseminating the information, they're basically pushing for more segregation within their own school system. Right. So one huge thing, training, training, training all staff, all across, teachers, aides, everyone, because a lot of gen ed teachers haven't had students with various disabilities, especially more extensive support needs in their class, and so they don't have that knowledge and again, they are not being supported. So it is a multilayered problem. And I'll add just one more thing to that, that if they aren't... if they don't have the training, they aren't feeling supported, then they also... they don't... Then they don't understand why a child... why they should be helping a child. Why does their role... If that's never explained to them that it... the benefits of how their role as a gen ed student is monumental in being able to support all kids and it... just because they have an IEP doesn't mean that now they're suddenly not on their radar of a child in their grade or in their school. That all kids need to be on their radar. And I just... and if the district isn't emphasizing that, then the gen ed teachers aren’t going to see any value in it. Right.

And similar to implicit bias, another big question we have about how IEP decisions are made is money. So how many decisions are made because districts don't want to pay for what our kids need to have full access? I mean, how often is it about money, even when they're not saying it's about money? Everything's about money. I didn't say that. No, I think... Everything's about money, but also everything shouldn't be about money, and I think that it's also, we... just throwing money at something and throwing more money at services isn't always going to fix the problem, right? And I think that that's where we need to understand both sides of the coin, and there is that aspect to it, that just putting another maybe Band-Aid or throwing more... another service without really understanding why we are needing to do this, that's not going to be beneficial. I actually would say it's not so much about money. It's more about time. So to really properly provide the support to a student that might require some good money down the road, we really should be putting in a lot of measures into understanding and analyzing what the student requires and what the student needs, and in that regard, we're talking about assessments. We're talking about functional behavioral analysis. We're talking about specialized points of view and professionals. And sometimes they're not going to be in your district, and districts will have to reach out and make some phone calls to get some opinions. And that requires time, mainly. That requires time to sit down with the team and to really collaborate, say, “How are we going to meet this child's needs?” And it could be more services, an aide, it could be many things that require... that also require money.

But it's time, I think, first, more than anything that we need. And I saw that Manuel had a question about aides. Why is it so hard to get a 1:1 aide, even if you have a child who has aggression and who's shown that? And I mean, that's just a really common example to me that does come back, and not always, because I know there's also multi-layered conversations to have about aides, but that frequently can come down to money, right? Yeah. I think a lot of even staff saying like, there's kids that are identified that they know need that support that... but the family doesn't know to ask for an aide, and the district is not saying this child needs an aide to succeed, right? It just keeps... they keep going. Seemingly, it feels like waiting for somebody. Is a family going to ask? Yeah, that definitely happens a lot. And I do think that that is also a... that is rooted from the district level 100%. Staff are afraid to suggest and offer things to parents that their children need, and that has been going on forever, since when I was in graduate school. One of the first things that you... more than 20 years ago, you would learn... you would hear, “Don't offer anything,” because whatever you offer to families, then the district was responsible for paying for it. And so that is unfortunately one of the earliest pieces of advice that many educators receive from their districts. And so they are afraid to say something to a parent and to speak up. Right. So that's something that I've also heard, from staff and a lot of other people I know have, as well, that they really aren't allowed to give their full recommendations or they'll say something to parents and say, “Look, this is what I'm saying, but I can't say that in an IEP.” Is that common for staff to have to edit or completely curtail their recommendations in an IEP? Yes and no. But yeah, I believe so. I think that they are...

Again, this also goes to lack of training and lack of information from the district to the staff. So, I think sometimes what happens is that the... in the best case scenario, the district will tell staff what they do or what they don't want them to say, or not specifically in that way, or maybe they'll tell them that they shouldn't speak to, maybe there is a policy written they can't speak to, that they can... they can't offer an extra thing they're going to pay for. Maybe they can't... Maybe they don't have the right to do that in their policies. However, I think that what happens is that the district tends to put on so many constraints to the staff and the IEP meeting that the staff just choose it's easier to say no to everything because they don't know what the district is going to slap their hand for, and so sometimes it's just easier to deny it all and let the district handle it for them. Right. Which really takes away the purpose of an IEP, which is to identify what a child needs and support them, obviously, and, which I guess comes to my next question, which is just way too often that the quality of an IEP falls on parents and our ability to advocate and call out when things aren't right, and many times, even when we get it right, it's not implemented. And it's just... That's just so deeply broken and completely inequitable, because the underlying message is that if you aren't an expert, your child might not get what they need. So how can we get quality control back on districts instead of having children's educational realities rely on parents for legal conferences, attending webinars, joining 50 Facebook groups, hoping to get an answer just to get our children what they're legally entitled to? So it's... It is... A lot of... It is a lot... It is unfortunately in the hands of the parents, yes, to make the requests and to ask for what they... for the rights for their children, and it shouldn't be, and I understand that, and I agree with the frustration.

I'll say a couple things. I'll say that lack of resources are a huge part of what's going on in special education and in education in general, and always have been. We've never had enough teachers. We've never had enough good teachers, never had enough special ed teachers, that's for sure. We're always in a staffing crisis, and there's a lot of... Everybody out there can say many reasons as to the reasons for it, but one of the biggest things is definitely resources, and that means money, and that means where the funding is coming from, and so I always say to all parents to advocate not just for their own child, but whatever they can do as far as, just like Undivided is right here, is standing up for voices of thousands of children out there and going to their state and their federal level and going to their constituents and their representatives and making their voices heard for more supports being needed for children with disabilities and also more awareness and the transparency. I mean, the... We... To get more resources, we need more funding, right, also, and so we need to get... we need to make our voices heard that there is really a big hole in the communication between parents and families. I mean, between parents and teachers and staff and school districts regarding meeting the needs of students in their schools. So, I mean, it is very heavy on the shoulders of the parents right now to ensure that their kids’ needs are being met, to ensure that the IEP is being implemented. I wish I could find you a secret... I could give you a magic weapon, or a magic wand and say, “Okay, it's fixed,” and just tell you how to fix it. I think that it goes... It's bigger than us. We need... it's us combined to fix it. Right.

Yeah, but I think, what you were saying really identifies the huge problem, because if the problem is resources, it's that then school teams and administrators are not offering what children are entitled to because of money, if I was hearing what you were saying, right, if it comes back to resources and funding, so they're not following through on what they're supposed to be doing under the law because of money, and so then they're waiting to see if parents are going to push back or call out or say, “Hey, we need to do this.” Are they going to go through due process, which... So then what our... it's completely inequitable, obviously. Again, it comes back to the children are getting what they need based on the privilege of the parent to go and educate themselves, which is really broken, and I heard somebody mention one time, I have no idea, but the idea of IEP audits, which I really like, something for some meeting check, right, of an IEP. Does it meet legal requirements? Send a survey to parents and staff afterwards, right? Get constant evolving feedback so you can tackle what's working instead of waiting for a lawsuit to find out. We've got to figure something out because right now kids are missing out, and then parents... My daughter is in high school and I was saying this to you earlier, Daphne, that parents who really trusted the system, I know so many, and then their kids land in high school and they realize how much their children have been missing, and then it comes back to parents having this guilt like it's something they didn't do, and that's not what IDEA is supposed to be, right? There's these legal requirements, but right now it's set up where... Well, we're going to... and not always out of malice, but it's like, here's our offer, and if something's missing, if the parent doesn't catch it, then it just... it isn't delivered, and so it's... That's just... It's a very broken piece that we need to figure out. I hear you I mean, I want to say... I want to go back to just one thing that you said before.

You mentioned how lack of resources is money, and I want to add on resources is not always money, it's also time. And of course, time is money, right? But I just want to... I want to add that there. I do think that if staff had more time... When I say resources, I really do feel that if the... if there was more time allotted, more staff, I mean again, it is money. So time is money, but I just... but a lot of times we need the administrators, our teachers that are in there every single day require more time to work with... to develop more proper IEPs for our students. However, that said, yes, the system is right now, unfortunately so, that it's easier for districts to just not act on a need for a child and wait for the parents that are more informed and more knowledgeable to... for them to ask and then just respond to those, and it is a huge disparity, right? And you see this with... across the board and across our nation, and it's a socioeconomic disparity as well, and you see the parents... the squeaky wheel gets heard more, and not everybody has the time or the money to be squeaky, or... and... or the information on how to be squeaky and to speak up for themselves, and so it is... it's a societal concern as well as it is an educational concern. And regarding IEP compliance, if you... if parents do feel that their school districts are not complying or not following the regulations, I always want to remind parents that that's what state complaints are in place for. And when they get that big procedural book at the beginning of every IEP, it gives them their... all of the information on how to make complaints to their state if they feel that IEP teams... If either... If their child's personal needs aren’t being met, but also if they see an injustice in IEP teams in general.

Now, our Department of Education is a little bit different right now, and the response time on being able to respond to issues of compliance is going to be more delayed, but it doesn't mean that anybody... it should be stopping anybody at all from making a complaint if it exists. Right. Without much of an expectation that it's going to be answered right now, but yes, just because there's... There's still some states that are still... that are working out there and they're still responding. And yeah, and I would actually... I went to a webinar this week from a group of national organizations saying, “Still file it. We don't... without much expectation, but still put it out.” I think Kansas is taking on a lot of filings right now for the entire nation. Hopefully I'm not over speaking, but there was a few states that are taking them on for a lot of the other states as well. Well, and another question we get that comes back to transparency. A lot of parents want to know what really happens in those staff pre-meetings before an IEP that parents aren't invited to see? What happens in those IEP pre meetings? They drink a lot of coffee. I mean is it our decision because it feels like decisions have already been made sometimes, so I think that's what parents really want to know, right? How often would you say teams are coordinating their offer? Right. Well, I think first, if a parent ever feels like a decision... it does feel like that and that there was a decision made before they met with them, the parent should always speak up. And I mean, if they ever feel that there has been some predetermination, they should ask, they should speak up and they should voice their concerns. Do teams connect before IEP meetings? Yes they do. Absolutely. Are they... Do they... and they have the right to. They have the right to definitely connect on how do you see this...

The special ed teacher and the service provider have the right to communicate with each other on how the child is doing in each environment, and then when they get to the IEP meeting, they can discuss what the needs are, if they're seeing something differently in one environment versus another, they should know that before they go in so that the parent... the parents also want to see that there is communication between the providers and the teacher that's working with their child. Now, communication and collaboration versus conspiring together are all... is very different, and we don't exactly want to see a system or a situation where a team, an IEP team, is meeting prior to an IEP and making calls on what services are going to be provided or not provided or what programs or what... or kind of how the meeting is going to go or who's going to run... What... Who's going to take charge of the meeting? I mean, again, it's a collaborative IEP meeting, and so, do those conversations happen? Yes, sure they do. And can we control that? Hard to. But the best way to do that is to go in there and be your... the voice for your child and ask as many questions, and if you feel like your meeting is not collaborative and you get any sense that this IEP team met before and came to some predetermined decisions without you there, use your voice and make a complaint and file it. I mean, that should not be happening. And we also encourage parents reach out to your child's team before IEPs so you're really... so you're not... hopefully you're not walking into an IEP with too many surprises. I say that knowing it happens all the time, but if you're touching base individually with team members, then hopefully that can break some of that surprise down, and you're talking and you know where each other stand and if you don't have that relationship with your team yet, hopefully you can build that.

And I know it's not always as easy as that, but those conversations before an IEP can alleviate some of that surprise or some of that sort of shock and awe that can happen in IEP sometimes. Absolutely. And also, I'm sure you have said this many times, it's one of... I'm sure it goes without saying. Parents, always ask for your IEPs prior. Always ask for your reports prior. You shouldn't be getting your reports the day before or the day... or the morning of, because if you get them hopefully five days prior to an IEP, you have time to develop your questions, and if you have a question that could maybe be addressed before the IEP meeting, it will serve everybody better if you... if that question can be emailed to the teacher and say, “Oh, I caught this. Was this an error?” And sometimes a... something that could have... could have become a really big deal and blown up into a big problem at the IEP meeting, maybe it was just an accident, and it could have been fixed by a quick email question prior to the IEP meeting. But again, you need information to ask questions. Right. Right. Yeah. I want to dive in to placement and about inclusion. So what is the biggest barrier to inclusion from a district perspective? I would say, the biggest barrier is... is probably staffing, is the staffing part of it, is the hardest part for districts to implement inclusion. We... I think, depending where you are, but a lot of... but most parents... not most. Well, a good amount of parents do really support inclusion.

And I think if you're... you're going to find more districts where it's going to be the parents that are more supportive of inclusion, and yet the staffing in the districts are going to be more... are going to be less supportive of it, and it could... it's also there's a lot of reasons for this. It's experience. It's... This is a... It's a changing of the guard situation as well, where we've got some newer... Well, I guess I would just say some districts where they're slow to change the guard and they're slow to realize that... to take on these policies in their districts of inclusion, for whatever reason, it is... if it is... whatever angle it's coming from for them, but it's definitely come from the district side. Change is hard and there's a lot of change going from a traditional system to supporting as many learners as you can in general ed and there's a lot that goes into it. It's difficult. Yeah. And fear. And also there's a lot of fear regarding inclusion, right? I think that you do see some school districts, and I see some schools, some charter schools, some independent schools that are out there that are... that do really want to push for the change, but they're afraid they don't know how, and there will always be a voice in the room that is going to be negative, and sometimes that negative voice can be louder than all the positive other voices in that room, and that, I think, makes people sometimes afraid to move forward. And so I think that there's... that... there's that huge fear about how are we going to do this? How are we still going to service everybody's needs? It’s not a justified fear by any means, because it's actually quite easy for districts to transfer their districts to a full inclusion district if they want to.

It's actually more cost effective than segregating our students into separate classrooms, and it is the just way to do things, but there is still a fear to move towards a system of inclusion for students with disabilities, and all students. And why...? I mean, you probably just answered it, but to call it out, why are we seeing districts choose to fight families in court instead of using those dollars to include students in gen ed with the supports that they need? Yeah. I mean, I think again, I think maybe I... maybe it is the fear. It's the unknown and also, we talked about this before too. It's just easier not to have to do something unless somebody really pushes for it and asks for it, and even if they do push and ask for it, how far are they really going to keep pushing before maybe they'll just let this one go? You see that a lot happen. Every parent on here understands the... And I was saying to you earlier, Daphne, from the earliest intervention that my daughter had as an infant where we were getting denied, from the beginning, I learned immediately that you're going to get a no, and they're going to wait and see who pushes back, right, whether that's insurance, whether that's services, whether that's school, whether... It's across our lives, people are going to... so often you're going to get a no, and they're going to wait to see who fights back, and if they do it for one child, right, then it sets a precedent, and when they don't want a precedent, right, they're going to do whatever they can to stop it. Yeah. I can't tell you how many times parents will say to me, “What would I...?” and I think a lot of advocates get this. I’m not just touting myself, but, “What would I do without you? How would I have known? How would I...? I would have just signed that IEP. What would I have said?

Oh my God, I would be... I would have lost all my services. My child would not be speaking the way he is today. He wouldn't... Look at how he's running. He can skip.” I mean, I love getting those responses, but it's usually because they just... you have to fight for it, and if the parents don't know and they're not going to fight, then this district isn't going to... generally, not going to say always, because when I was an administrator in a school district, I did fight for the parents, but I would say that there are a lot of teams that aren't always going to fight for the parents and for the... rather, for the child. Right. And so think of all the kids that don't get to skip, right, or talk to their... or communicate, or socialize, or learn. So... And I mean, for what you see, Daphne, and I'm sure every parent here could probably answer this for you, but are there profiles for a yes or no kid for inclusion? Sadly, I think that every district's profile or setting or every charter school, every school is going to have... It's going to vary, but yeah, there are profiles. I mean, I can't say what specifically they are for every single one, right, because every district is always going to have a different policy system, different value system when it comes to inclusion. Their changing of the guard may have happened a long time ago, and it may just be a much more welcoming and progressive district. It’s going to depend, but yes, of course there are.

And I would call out intellectual disability and behavior challenges is two of the most difficult to include, but then, I mean, you see all kinds of things. I mean, I... So correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, those are like the two obvious ones, but then then you also bring in race and there's a lot of factors if you look at segregated classes in certain districts and the trends that you see. Yes, absolutely. And I mean that, of course, we get into what is the overt policies and what are more of the hidden policies, right, or the hidden systems that are in place, especially when we go into racism and language and cultural differences and how that's going to unfortunately affect the way choices are made for children moving forward in inclusion. And yeah, I generally... historically students that were ID or with severe behavioral challenges have always sort of historically been the children that we... that staff has assumed would be... it would be segregated, and it is changing more, thank goodness. I think behavior challenges probably are the ones now that I see to be really the hardest. The district's put up more strength, some more difficulty as far as including those... including children with behavior difficulties and challenges in the classrooms. That's a problem.

And that can have a a large definition too, right? Because for some, stimming might be a behavioral challenge, right? And I'm not saying... I know there's some stimming that can be very disruptive to the child themselves, so I'm not taking away from that, but I'm saying like, I've heard things like, “Well, I mean, the child has to stand up and move around. They can't do that in a class of 30 kids.” Why not? So yeah, there's the big range. And I also, because I'm looking at the time, but I... but I still have some questions for you, so we might... Daphne said we could go a little over if we had time. I also do really want to quickly touch on too, what... Daphne, what can parents do to collaboratively work with their districts to build a more inclusive culture so it's not just certain kinds of kids with an attorney who get that privilege, which is actually a right? Well, I mean, I think... I think it is in the hands of the parents to definitely... to work with the districts to build that inclusive culture.

Like I said before, we parents, educators, advocates, we have to advocate locally, statewide, federally, and so it all starts with that one parent that's going to have to go to their local school, their local school district, and start right there and start, whether it is that they are creating... they're coordinating other parents together on... We used to get... Lindsay, I think you created the District Advisory Committee. You need powerful communities of parents speaking together and ensuring that that voice is on the agenda of the districts, every month, every... every... minimum, every quarter, and that the... that there are policies set in place where the voice of the parents and the community of the parents has the opportunity to speak with the district and share their concerns on a regular basis, and all parents and communities have to do is just ask for that. Let's just say we want this time and we are inserting ourselves in your agenda, and if it's coming to your board meeting, we will come to your board meeting and we will speak at your board meeting. If you won't set... If you won't carve out an hour for us, every month, every two months, or at least every quarter to discuss how we can work on improving the needs... improving the services for our students in the district. Because IEPs are isolated by design and districts are... It isn't that you want to have a special ed district advisory committee to scare people. That isn't at all the point. It's to be collaborative, but getting people together, getting parents together with IEPs is scary for districts, and so there can be pushback about that, but you have to get out... and some people only have the bandwidth, completely understandably, to advocate for their child. That’s what we're talking about, how difficult that is, but when you get people together, then it becomes an official voice. You can have board members attending your meeting, special ed director, ed services, superintendent, right? So you're really talking and looking systemically what's going on because while you're trying to help your child’s situation, a lot of times it's not just your child, as we all know, but there's many families, and to bring those voices together, it's very important for really attacking what's going on at the district level. Yeah. And also I would say even for the parent that says, “Well, I'm only going to be in this district for another year or two and we're going to move,” sometimes I'll hear that from parents. It doesn't matter. You're still going to go to another district that's going to need you there too. So your services are going to carry over and can be transferred over, and also the information that the parent is... they're going to learn so much. The parent... Parents are going to learn so much by working together and collaborating to build a stronger community for... and voice... and create stronger voices for the needs of the children, so it's a win win situation overall, and I do encourage parents as much as possible to use their voice, collaborate and make their committees and their communities together. Right. And as we're working with districts, hopefully we can then reduce the need to go to due process, but we know that that's a part of the law, that is our right. I don't think it's fun for anybody. It's expensive. It's stressful. I don't think the districts like it. I don’t think parents like it. It's something we hope that we can avoid. So I mean, is there anything that you would suggest that we haven't already talked about about how to avoid due process when both sides can't agree? I really... The... Parents have various forms of... to express a disagreement, as they always hear when they are in an IEP meeting and yes, due process at all accounts, if you can avoid it, I would avoid it. It is litigious. Going into litigious action is never fun, and if you're on the parent side or on the district side, and it's a lot of money that goes towards attorneys and doesn't go towards our kiddos, and it's very sad and disappointing, and it's really stressful, and we want positive energy, we want that positive energy going towards our kiddos. So how do we avoid going to due process? Well, we make sure that our district knows us. If you're in a small district, I... you... I feel like you are... I'm going to advocate a little bit for the charters and the smaller districts, because if you get to know... You have an easier way to get to know your administrators and to make friends and let them know your... let them know who your child is, and when you have a new director come in or a new superintendent, the smaller the district... you make sure that your advisory committee is scheduling a meeting with them, and so you are having a little coffee chat, and so you're on their agenda so that if something does come up, it doesn't have to blow up and become something really big. It sometimes can be handled by a quick phone call or email, because there already is a relationship. So I guess relationships, relationship building. We want that really in any field, and I think that having better relationships with our parents and our district administrators goes a long way in preventing this discourse of litigation, and distrust. Trust is huge. Trust is going to go a long way. And so we... and that goes on both sides. There's a lot of distrust on both sides, especially parents that have been... and understandably, that have reason to not trust the districts because of things that have happened in the past. Trying, if you're in a new classroom, new teacher, a new school, trying to walk in, in hopes to build trust. I think a lot of times parents are really... they've been so hurt in the past that they... the open mindedness of a trusting environment is very hard to even create, and so... and then we... the... as... I think as much communication, like I said, with committees, with the committees, with the district, that will... where the district can hear the parent’s side of view of what's going on, that can hopefully avoid for due process, and using your resources. Advocates like myself, there are advocates out there that are pro bono. There's Regional Center advocates, so if people can't afford to always get the resources that they need, but I do... I do say at minimum, if a parent is going into IEP meetings and they don't have anybody else with them, like a professional person who's aware of special ed, at minimum if they're by themself, it's a single parent, bring a friend at the very least and always record your meetings. Always record your meetings, especially if you're by yourself in there and you don't know... you feel intimidated, always record them. And then let the school district know at least 24 hours before that you're going to be recording them. Well, every state's different on their laws about if they'll have to record as well, but ask if you can record that meeting before, give them 24 hours and don't ever feel rushed to sign anything. Don't ever -- I say -- sign an IEP the day of an IEP. Don't ever feel rushed. If they try to force you to sign an IEP, even if you actually think that was a pretty good meeting, I still wouldn't sign that IEP in that meeting. Take it home, have them send it to you, take your time, and then you take your time to go and get somebody who has more expertise to look at it and review it and listen to it and to give you advice. So I think a lot of things could be avoided if we put the preventative steps to make sure that that IEP that's not so great never gets put into place. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And lastly, thank you for staying a couple minutes late, Daphne. There's so much to cover. But lastly, if you did have the magic wand, you brought the magic wand, so if you had that magic wand, what is a radical idea that you think could work to fix what's broken? Everything we're discussing, right? If you could fix what's broken in special education and help it fulfill its purpose and its mission for kids, what would that be? Special education, fix what's broken... And I've got how much time? Just give me one. So, I have a background as an educational psychologist, so I started as a school psychologist many moons ago, and I... which means that I started with my... My experience with disabilities was in the assessments and the eligibility, which basically is labeling. So in the districts we call it... labeling is really what is... what we call eligibility, because in districts, they're not allowed to give a diagnosis for a term for a disability. Unfortunately, there is a lot to be said about making sure that you have a diagnosis or a label for your child, but I think what we need to step away from in schools is the focus on the name of the label, that that is going to drive everything and every service for our kiddos in schools. So it's not so much... Assessments are really powerful, and as a psychologist, I vouch by assessments. They give us so much information on our kiddos, but to rely on assessments for the sole purpose of a label and eligibility, that then is going to tell you what we can and can't do for a child, that is not going to be helpful or a benefit. That is not, in my opinion, very helpful currently for our kiddos. It would save a lot of resources and a lot of time if we would focus on the kids’ needs, what they need, and create individual plans for our kiddos that are catered to the child and not to the label. So... Which assessments can help, obviously, unearth if it’s a good assessment, but 100%, if you're giving somebody, which we see a lot, if you're giving a student services based on a diagnosis or an... implicit biases or low expectations, then that is, again, eroding the entire reason that IEPs exist. I mean, we can make... we could do a lot of things to fix up special education, but if I was going to give you one thing right now, that's kind of the one thing that comes to mind, but I think we've made a lot of growth over the years, but we have a long way to go. A long, long way to go in special education and supporting our kiddos. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, Daphne, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you being so open. And as someone who has had the privilege of working with you in different capacities over the years, I can attest that we need more administrators like you. You have always approached barriers with a student and family centered approach, and sadly, that is still rare, or, I guess, just not common enough, and it's a shocking culture for many to accept unfortunately, so thank you for laying out the gap between what special education was meant to be and what it's still supposed to be and where we actually are, and we... I appreciate the conversation about we need to bring everybody together. I mean it really... It's like that's everybody, all the stakeholders need to come together to fix what's broken, and it is very, very layered, because there... -- But we can do it. We can do it and we shouldn't feel threatened by, maybe with the current policies that are changing things, but we can do it and we will do it. We've come a long way. Yeah. We're going to need those voices more than ever, right, as we could be undergoing some big changes, and right now, even not looking at those changes that could be coming with the Department of Education, possibly oversight changing, to a different department could close down, right now without even looking at that, cultural norms, like we've been discussing, it's skewed special education and its original purpose, so if we can come back to baseline and remember that this is about kids and we believe in those kids and we fund that belief in the right ways, then maybe we can dismantle the broken and rebuild in a way that respects the integrity of our children and their futures. So, let's work, like I said, and like Daphne said, we're all going to need to come together, and as much as you feel like sometimes, how am I going to face tomorrow, because we are constantly reminding people, sometimes it feels like we're constantly reminding people to do their jobs or you don't feel heard, hopefully you can find allies, right? There has to be an ally. Find those allies because they're there, and they might not even realize it yet. So... Yeah, and another really important thing that we love to talk about, I want to make sure, that you tune in to our next event. It is going to be a virtual training on California's alternative pathway to a diploma for students with extensive support needs, led by Sacramento County Office of Education's Kristen Wright and Stephanie Coleman. Students with intellectual disability now have more diploma options, in case you haven't heard, and we don't want one eligible student to miss out. So Kristen and Stephanie will also take questions, so we would love to see you there. You can RSVP to the link that Donna shared in the chat. And in the meantime, please stay connected with us. Donna is going to share our socials in the chat. We'll keep you updated with the most important info that your family needs to know about IEPs, public benefits and legislative changes that affect our community, our supports, and our rights. So thanks again to Daphne for talking with us today, and to all of you for being here. Our mission is to support you so that your children can thrive, and we want you to thrive too. We'll see you soon.