Understanding FAPE, LRE, and Your IEP

Event Transcript: Hey, everybody. Welcome to Undivided Live. Happy St. Patrick's Day. Are you wearing green, Sarah? You're not wearing green. Is it green? It is? We're talking this morning, so I don't know, maybe it's just like old school, right, where you go to school, and if you weren't wearing green, then somebody could pinch you. Did everyone do that, right? Yes, right? And some people didn't wear green just so they could get pinched, but we're not talking about St. Patrick's Day, but we are going to be talking about one of the most important educational rights for our children: The right to a free and appropriate education. But what does that really mean? How do we know if our child's IEP has met the requirements and who determines that bar? So, another fundamental piece of special education rights is the least restrictive environment, and I'm sure it comes as no surprise to you, but this can be one of the biggest areas of contention between parents and schools. When can your child be denied a gen ed classroom? Or on the other end of the spectrum, how can we prove that a nonpublic school is our child's least restrictive environment? How is LRE actually defined and does it go beyond placement conversations? Let's find out. I’m Lindsay Crain and I head the Content and Community teams at Undivided. With me today we welcome back educational advocate Dr. Sarah Pelangka. She is the owner of KnowIEPs, has a doctorate in BCBA, and is the sibling of a sister with a disability. Welcome back, Dr. Pelangka. Hello, everyone. She's careful because her dog is running... was running around with balloons. Is that what... Well, so the leprechaun came, okay, and made a mess, so there are balloons everywhere, and he is just having the time of his life, so they may pop. I apologize in advance. You may hear some noise. It’s just the leprechauns and the dog playing in the background. It’s another day. IEPs can be stressful, emotional, overwhelming, and sometimes incredibly satisfying, but if you still have questions after our talk today, our Undivided Navigators would love to help. They can walk you through a personalized step-by-step guide detailing your biggest priorities around placement, your parental rights, or the entire dreaded IEP prep, and if you don't even know where to start, they can help with that too, so check out the link Donna shared, and we can tell you more about how our Navigators can support you wherever you are in the process, but right now, let's talk FAPE, LRE, and the IEP. So, Dr. Pelangka, if you can first sort of give us an overview and define FAPE and LRE and explain why they're essential for parents to understand, and then we'll dive into each. Yes. So, FAPE and LRE, probably the two biggest acronyms that we all should be familiar with, right? So, FAPE stands for free and appropriate public education. It's the main component of the law, and it really allows students that require special education to access public educational systems just as everybody else, right? And so I know we're going to kind of delve into each letter in a bit, but that's kind of in a nutshell what that refers to. Pre IDEA, unfortunately that wasn't the case, and a lot of our kiddos were institutionalized way back when and/or kept out of a public school setting, so FAPE really protects our students in assuring that they can and will have access to public education and LRE, part of the law as well. Least restrictive environment refers to basically the fact that all students should have the right to be as close to a general education population as possible while maintaining progress. So, I know we're going to kind of get into that more too, and what that hierarchy looks like and really delve into LRE. Supports, access, progress. And we're just going to jump straight into it. We're going to start with FAPE, and I'm just going to go straight for the million dollar question, which everyone always laughs about, but we're going to talk about the A in FAPE. So, what does ‘appropriate’ mean? Well, if I may I'm going to do F,P, and E first, and then we'll go back to A, because A is the most subjective, right? And so I feel like the other three are more objective. So, free is free. So, again that means that any student, regardless of their abilities, has the right to free education. They shouldn't have to... They should not be required to pay to be educated. Public is public education, so again, all students, regardless of their abilities, has the right to attend and access public educational systems. They cannot be denied access based on their labels or what have you. And education is education, so again, I feel like you're kind of redundant in that respect, but they have the right to be educated. They can't be institutionalized or kept out of the educational system because they are, quote unquote, incapable of learning or have too significant of a delay. Any student, regardless of their abilities, has the right to be educated and have access to education. Now, appropriate is everyone's least favorite word, I think, within the law as a whole, because it's so subjective and it's changed over time. Endrew F., obviously, I think the most recent, really put some clarity to it and made it become meaningful progress, but it really is that students have to have access to what is appropriate for them and their needs, and that the education that they're accessing should now provide meaningful benefit but be appropriate to where they're at, be ambitious and challenging enough to promote progress and just that it's appropriate for who they are. It needs to be individualized and ensuring that they're able to progress as they're moving through their education. And who determines what appropriate means during an IEP? So, I mean, the whole IEP team, right? So, there's pieces to the law that state, and again, after certain case law has come out, that it needs to be... prove meaningful benefit, so I think that's really the key lingo when we're talking about that ‘A,’ that appropriate piece is, are these goals providing meaningful benefit or is this program or this IEP as a whole providing meaningful benefit to my child, if you're the parent in the room, right? If they're writing goals that are... Let's say the baseline for whatever the goal is is 65% and the annual goal is set for 80%, more than likely, that's not super meaningful progress for a year's time, right? So, looking at things like that. Or if they're writing a goal for a skill that just makes no sense and it's not going to be meaningful for that person's future or something that they could learn at home, like learning how to read a menu, for example. Is that something that's meaningful, especially if the student is, say, ten and they're not in an adult transition program type thing? The goals need to be meaningful in a variety of ways, and they have to prove benefit for that child at that time or within the timing that they're in in terms of their age and their grade, right? It has to make sense for that student and they also should help guide that student to their ultimate goals. I know, I think last week you talked about the vision statement, and I'm a huge proponent of that as well, and making sure that all of the IEPs include just that vision for that child, and so the goals should kind of be those building blocks year after year, as far as getting them to reach those ultimate goals, and so they need to be meaningful in that respect as well, and of course, working to grade level standards all at the same time, and so all of those are pieces to the ‘A,’ right? Is it appropriate in all of those ways? And every person in that room should be able to ensure that it's appropriate, but unfortunately that often doesn't happen, and so parents need to be kind of on their toes and make sure that they're aware of what that ‘A’ means and holding everyone accountable. And what... Yeah, and there's a lot to dig into within that, but what doesn't it cover? I guess we should say that as well. What doesn't it cover as far as best... I mean, is it... Is FAPE about, great, maximizing your child's potential, giving them the best that you can find in education? I mean, how does it... how do we define that or have any kind of boundaries in this super gray area? Yeah. Again, I think it's really hard because it's still... there's still subjectivity, right? So, what happened is it went from like a de minimis education, so just making sure that they have access to something, to be quite honest, is really what it was, to meaningful education, and so meaningful does not mean best, and it's really hard for parents to hear that, right? And so on occasion I'll get clients or you'll hear parents, like, “I want everything. The moon, the stars, and everything in between for my child,” and of course, I'm a parent too, and I want that for my children too, but at the end of the day, the districts aren't held to that standard. They aren't held to provide the absolute best education, because they aren't held to do that for any child, right? So, we like to think that we're sending our kids to school, gen ed or special ed, and they're getting the best education out there, but they're not. I mean, maybe someone is, but every student isn't being afforded that opportunity, so that is kind of the reason why we can't argue that our kids should have that opportunity, if that makes sense. What is required is that all children under the law have access to meaningful and benefit... beneficial education and that they're making progress and they're working towards closing that gap. The law doesn't say the gap has to be closed, right? That's another thing that I think is hard. Parents will often go in and say, “Well, my kid's two grades behind. The gap needs to be closed.” And it's like, well, the law doesn't say that that's our job. The law says you're... We need to make sure... We need to ensure your child is progressing and that they’re progressing at a meaningful pace and that they're building... they’re skill building, but it doesn't say that their job is to completely close the gap and completely catch them up to their same age peers, right, and that we have to provide the absolute best education out there. And the ‘P,’ we actually have quite a few questions that came in before the event, just wanting that clarification for public. They said, “Can this... Is there any relevance of FAPE to private school or homeschooling?” So, I just wanted to clarify... for you to clarify that. Yeah. So, in the state of California, no. I mean, private schools don't fall under the law because they're private, and so home schools in the state of California fall under the private school kind of realm, and so they don't... Unfortunate... I actually had... It's called a STEP meeting, because it's a private school, and they don't have IEPs, but anyway, it was a student and long story short, he was just referred basically to be on home hospital, and the school came back and said, “We can't. We cannot do that. We don't have the capability to make that work.” So, he can no longer continue at the school, and you can't really hold them to FAPE because... or IDEA because they're a private school, so they aren't held to the same law and the same standards, unfortunately, so for parents who are interested in private schools, it's always recommended to do your research, because some private schools are willing to provide accommodations or work with the family and do what they can, like this family for, gosh, six years, he was there and they did, they had a whole, what we would kind of refer to as a 504. They allowed an aide to come in. They gave them extra textbooks. So... But then it usually does get to a point where they just don't have the resources, right? They don't have a special education team. They don't have the providers. So, yeah. Got it. And at the end of the IEP, the admin should make an offer of FAPE that's written into the IEP document. How can parents review that IEP and assess for FAPE? What do we need to look for? Okay. So, at the end of the IEP, FAPE is discussed, and basically, I mean, the IEP as a whole is FAPE, right? So, there's two kind of prongs to FAPE. There's procedural and there's substantive. So, the procedural step, if you're looking at if FAPE is being met, is just all the kind of almost like logistical... Did they provide a copy of parents rights? Did they hold the IEP by the due date? Did they kind of dot all their I’s and cross all their T's, if you will? Is everything kind of documented correctly in terms of the paperwork? Did they send prior written notice, if those were required at any point within the year? Those would be procedural violations to FAPE. And then substantive violations would be, like, is it being implemented properly. So, now we have this paperwork, we have this legally binding document that says, for example, the child is supposed to receive speech and language therapy for 30 minutes a week, and then parent comes to find out that he hasn't received it for the past three months. That would be a violation of FAPE, right? So also, if there's no data, we have all these goals written in and it says they're going to be measured by work samples or records or whatever, and then they can't produce the data, that's a violation of FAPE, because that basically implies they didn't work on the skill, right? Violation of FAPE could be... It could go either way, that they're offering a too restrictive placement, or they're offering a too... less restrictive placement, right, so... and then parents can go back and say, “That was a violation of FAPE. You should have known my child needed more support,” or, “You gave him... You didn't allow him enough time with gen ed based on his abilities and where he's at.” So, there's... I mean, FAPE can be violated in any which way. So, you can agree, because again, we had a lot of questions about this from parents, you can agree to that IEP, everyone signs on, so you like the way that it looks, and if it's not carried out after that, then that is a violation. It's not something that lives within IEP meeting. If it's not carried out, that is then a violation of FAPE. A violation of FAPE, yes. You did not uphold what was agreed upon. Right. And you talked a lot about progress. So, if a child is regressing or they're not making progress, it's obvious, it's not so black and white, right? We can say though, if they're not making progress, it can be used a lot of ways. One will lead to the discussion we'll have in a minute about LRE, but is that considered a violation of FAPE if your child isn't making progress or they're regressing? I mean, not necessarily, right, because the team could be doing everything that is written into the IEP, they're providing all the services, they have all the data, they're showing you that they're doing it and it's not working, right? I mean, it's not always the case that someone isn't doing something they're supposed to be doing, and so in that case, it's not a violation. It could imply that something within the IEP isn't FAPE, if that makes sense, like something is amiss or something needs to be changed because we've been doing this, we've been doing it for seven months, and unfortunately, we're not seeing... He's plateaued, or he's regressed, so we need to come back to the table and revisit the IEP as a whole. Got it. And so, like I said, this is sort of the perfect segue way about LRE, or least restrictive environment. So, how does that fit into FAPE? I mean, first, is LRE only about placement and where our kids are learning? So, least restrictive environment, again, specifically refers to basically how much time is spent with the general education population, and so in that respect, because I know you're saying, “Does it only refer to placement?” I mean, I guess, yes. I think one thing that I hear a lot in meetings is the denial of a 1:1 aide because it's too restrictive and it wouldn't be the kid's least restrictive environment, and an aide is like a service, it's not a placement, so I always use that as an argument to deny that rationale. It's supposed to be a service within a placement, and so you can't deny an aide because it's too restrictive, right? So, if the student is in a gen ed class with an aide, they're still in a gen ed class. They're still with the same population of peers. We're not removing them from that population, if that makes sense. So, when you look at LRE, the hierarchy, it's specific to really the placement, or the location of where the services will be provided, right? So, if a student is pretty much fully mainstreamed within a gen ed class, that would be like the top of the tower. That's the, I always say, most least restrictive, which doesn't always sound like it makes sense, but... and then you kind of go down from there, like a gen ed class with some pull-outs and then a SAI class time, and then just all day SAI class, and then SAI schools or county schools, nonpublic schools, and then home hospital in residential settings. Obviously you can be in a gen ed class and have cushioned supports, but again, that's not taking away the percentage of time that the student is with their gen ed peers, so that doesn't really change LRE per se, and if you look at that percentage on an IEP, that's why it's there, right, because it’s reflecting LRE, so how much... What percentage of the day is a student with and without their gen ed peers? So, whenever services are pushed in, that number doesn't change. It only changes when they're pulled out. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I know we've touched on this before, but what is the significance of that percentage? I mean, you're saying it goes towards LRE, but how can the district look at that percentage? Can that affect placement? It can. So, it's like 51/49, so whenever that number goes above 51%, then the student is designated as an SDC or SAI, basically a special day class student, so that's kind of more, I would say, of something parents tend to need to look at when it's elementary school, because then when you're in middle and high school, it's all kind of wacky because there's multiple classes, but, resource pullout isn't a thing after elementary school, basically, so if you're in a resource model, you can only be so if you're 49% or less time in special... SAI class, or SAI minutes. Once that number goes above 51%, resource is no longer an option and you would be moved to an actual SDC class, because the higher percentage of your day is spent with a special day or a special ed teacher versus a gen ed teacher, or the same thing can be said for students. A higher percentage of your day is spent with special ed students versus gen ed students, so that would no longer be considered the least restrictive environment. Does that makes sense? Yeah, definitely. I just... It's important because some parents might not even really pay attention to that, and that it does have relevance, and make sure it's like all the parts of the IEP that maybe you skim over have a lot of importance. Many... Well, many. Everything has importance but some of them have hidden importance, I guess, or something a lot of people don't talk about. And when you were going over that hierarchy, I do have a question because some people talk about LRE and say there's only one LRE, which is a general education classroom at your home room at your home school with supports, and other people and many districts say that least restrictive environment is defined for each individual child, so which one is correct? So, least restrictive environment again refers to the environment in which the student is placed and they're making meaningful progress and educational benefit. I think it is confusing because it's... The least restrictive environment possible is, again, the general education class, because what's considered less restrictive is what's closest to the general education population, but that LRE is dependent on each individual student and their needs, so at the end of the day, hopefully at least 1% of their time is spent with the gen ed population. Obviously, that's not the case once you get to nonpublic schools and below. That's why those are the most restrictive placements. That is like the bottom of the hierarchy. There is no accessibility to gen ed at all, right? So, that's a huge decision. If you're saying we're recommending, this student be in a nonpublic school or home hospital or what have you, parents have to have a clear understanding that that means, like, 0% of their day is spent with the general education population, but that is part of LRE. It is an option, and that may in fact be that student’s LRE at any given time, depending on that individual students needs, right? So again, I had an IEP yesterday. This kid has been suspended three times within the last three weeks, and the most recent was pretty intense. Police recall there was assault on a student and he doesn't feel good about it either, so it's not just looking and considering the other students’ safety. It's like, is it willing... Is it a benefit to him to keep sending him back to this big, giant public school, knowing that he knows he can't regulate right now, and he's feeling guilty about the behaviors he's engaging in, and he doesn't understand right now why he can't regulate himself. It's not, and he doesn't feel good about it, and it can only continue to get worse potentially, and are we willing to risk that, right? Are we willing to potentially see this kid become even more... making more suicidal statements? He's also already become suicidal. In those situations, it's very likely the case, and the argument can be made that it is no longer that student’s LRE and he needs to go to a more therapeutic setting where he can get the help that he needs. Does that mean that that's going to be maintained as his LRE? No. Ideally, the goal is always to bring a student back to that gen ed population, but there are occasions in which it's literally not safe, and at that... at this time, a nonpublic school is his LRE. So, it is based on each individual student's needs. The default... Or, that’s where you start, and then you are looking at each child. That's where the decision starts, right? It doesn't... I mean, technically an argument can be made that every student starts in a gen ed class, but there are kids who start preschool and they aren't in a gen ed preschool, so there are occasions in which they have not yet been in a gen ed class, but that's where the discussion always should start. It should never start here. It should be, okay, let's start with the gen ed class. Do we think looking through this IEP that these goals can be met, and these services can be provided and the student can make meaningful benefit in a general education class? Yes? Great. That's his LRE. No? Okay, why? And let's look at the next level. And it should go step-by-step, right? It should never just start down here, those conversations, but the conversation does have to be had. And I do want to touch on the systemic issues with that in just a moment because as you know, you and all the... many parents know that it is a huge issue starting there at the bottom, but I want to touch on that in a minute. I want to follow up on really talking about these placements. If your district sends you to maybe a special ed classroom in a school that's farther away, it's not your home school, does that impact determination of FAPE, if a family says, “We don't want to go further away, We want to be at the home school.” I mean, is that a valid conversation to have in the IEP around FAPE? Yeah, I mean it is, but I think a couple things. So, one of the problems is that obviously there are less students that require special education than there are general education students, so not every campus has every single program option, right? And so the main reason why students are placed not at their home school is because the home school doesn't offer what their LRE is or what has been determined to be their FAPE, and so they can't attend their home school because the team has agreed that student needs, let's say, an autism... structured autism class, and that's not at the home school. However, there are other occasions in which the home school does have the program, but there's no space, and so that is a different situation entirely, and I definitely encourage parents to push for that because, I mean, it's huge. Like, my kids personally, I mean, they're gen ed, but they don't go to their home school because we were already on a transfer, and I was actually just thinking about this last week. I'm like, we don't have a lot of playdates, and that's not fun, because all their friends are all the way across town, right? And so we can't just walk outside and see their friends from school, and that's so huge, for all students, any students. So yeah, I always tell parents to push for that. There are ways for schools to get waivers to have higher caseloads or more students in their class. It's not ideal by any means, but it's possible. But yeah, if it's your home school and they have the placement and the program offered there, definitely push for that. And that's a huge reason, and socialization and social emotional well-being are part of FAPE in your academics. It's not just academic academics. It's part of the... Everything is part of the student's education, so imagine how much more meaningful their social experiences would be and can be if they are at their neighborhood school, right? Yeah. I mean, I... Yeah, my daughter, it was the same situation. We would go to our park and none of the kids in our neighborhood were at our school because we were, actually. and when she was young, right, we were pushed to a special ed program, and so we were not allowed to go to our home school because of that. And yeah, it was already a hard situation, social... A lot of our kids might have issues. It's difficult to socialize anyway and to make friends, and then when you kind of take the environmental piece out of it where they're not walking outside and recognizing their friends or... It's even more difficult. One more layer to consider. It's really important. So, everything we were just talking about with gen ed, just to clarify, that LRE is not a legal guarantee for a gen ed placement. No. Yeah. The law doesn't say... The law is not least restrictive environment is general education, and all students that require special education have the right to general education. That is not what the law says. It's based on each individual student’s needs because they have to be making meaningful progress. Yeah. And you touched on behavior, and we definitely... It's a big question for a lot of parents obviously, especially talking about LRE and what does that mean when behavior comes into play. We had some parents asking about, can we be denied for a gen ed placement because of behavior, and then we had this specific question that actually really... from a parent, Stephanie, that reminded me a little bit... I mean, I have no idea her situation, but of the story you just told. And Stephanie, she asked if a district can force a parent to send their child with a mental health disorder to a residential school because they are a liability to the district. Sorry, my phone is ringing. Hopefully you can't hear that. Can you repeat the question? Yeah, yeah. So, Stephanie wanted to know... She asked if the district can force a child to send their child with a mental health disorder to a residential school because they're a liability to the district. And you could probably ask that for a lot of things, right? To say for any child, are they a liability? We're going to send them to a county program or somewhere else. Can they do that? Yeah. I don't really know that I understand the question in its entirety, but I'll respond to it the way I'm interpreting it. I mean, obviously my first instinct is the answer is no. I mean, there's placements in between public school and residential, number one, so I'm not sure if they had considered a nonpublic school. Residential treatment center is obviously the most restrictive option and it requires a lot of... It's pretty hard and it should be because it would... You're sending the student away not only from the school but from their home. They would be living there. And there's a whole assessment on top of assessments that are required to put a referral in. The other thing to note is in the state of California, if a student has any history of elopement or being a runner, then automatically they would be placed out of state because California has no locked facilities, and so that's big too and oftentimes families aren't aware of that, and so their child more than likely is going to be placed out of state if it's a student with pretty significant behaviors because most of them try to flee. Saying that a student is a liability to the district, I'm not sure I understand that part. I mean, the district is responsible for the student, and so their job is not to to determine whether or not a student is a liability, their job is to make sure that they're supporting that student’s needs, so that's kind of the part that's throwing me off. I don't know if that's referring to the student putting other students in danger or putting the staff in danger, and so they're feeling like they're liable for the other students’ safety, but at the end of the day, he's a student too, and so they're responsible for his safety and his well-being, and so what they should be doing is calling IEPs. I don't know the history of this student, but calling IEPs to ensure that FAPE is being offered and everything on the IEP is being implemented and if it's not working, is there anything else that can be tried? Does he have intensive individualized counseling? Does he have wrapped services? Does he have a behavior plan? Does he have all those specialists seeing him and how regularly? And is there an aide that needs to be there, before we look at things like a nonpublic school? And a nonpublic school should definitely be tried before a residential treatment center. So, yeah. Well, and in what cases is a nonpublic school... I mean, you... I mean, we were obviously talking about an example with residential placement, but what cases is a nonpublic school considered the least restrictive environment beyond... I know we just talked about behavior, but it could be schools for autism or learning disabilities, ASL, or behavioral challenges. I mean, personally, nonpublic schools are very tricky because they have a little bit more flexibility in terms of the qualifications of the staff that work there, so, yeah, it's just parents have to be really careful of that and making sure all the teachers are fully credentialed and the staff that are there are experienced in supporting the population that they serve, and that... I think I gave you the example when we spoke last week. I have a client who's being referred to a nonpublic school strictly for behavior, and we have this meeting with this nonpublic school that they're referring the student to, and they have no behaviorists on staff, no RBT or BCBAs. And when I asked, okay, well, if a student is being referred there for behavior, what evidence based strategies do you... because I want to know. I don't believe that letters are super important, but come on, you know? And when the answer is like, “We're trained in how to restrain and we're... and CPI trained or Pro-ACT trained, whichever one, it's like, well, that's a red flag. So, you want to make sure that they... because then it's like, okay, so you're basically telling me you're going to support this kid because you know how to restrain him and he's probably just going to get restrained every day and then go home, right? That's not okay. So, being mindful of who's providing the services, what their level of expertise is in supporting the population, what their background is as far as training, what curriculum they're using. They aren't necessarily held to the same standards as far as curriculum. When I think nonpublic schools could potentially be an LRE, I would say definitely with more extreme significant mental health needs, where there's more of that therapeutic need. I've seen a lot of success with certain schools, actually, and students go back to public school, and it's been amazing. Potentially, if it’s extreme outward behaviors, there could be a need, and it could work, and be meaningful. And also the opposite end of the spectrum, like there's 2e kids where they're twice exceptional and/or just students who are bored in the public school system and it's just not working for them, and they're not really learning at the pace that they could be and with the rigor that they could have access to, and there are some great nonpublic schools out there that serve specific populations like autism or learning disabilities, and they have great programs and awesome curriculum. So, for me, that's kind of the two realms that I see it working, and being most effective. And Stephanie did... She said she wanted clarification. Is there a law stating how much time on a bus is reasonable when busing to another school? So, if you've chosen another school or you're being sent to a different school from your district, even public, is there a law stating how much time in a bus is reasonable when bussing to another school? That's a good question. To be honest, I don't know if there's a specific law. I would have to look into that. I mean, I think there's common sense in terms of how much time would be realistic, but I mean, I've had clients... Literally, again, the day before yesterday, a mom is fighting that because her kid, totality for morning and afternoon, is on a bus for three hours a day, so we're working to get just like a private transportation system, because it's not working for him and he's wetting himself and so on and so forth. But I've heard of kids, honestly, being on a bus for longer than that, and I've heard parents say, “My kid loves being in the car, so it's no problem for me. It calms him. It soothes him.” So, I feel like it's kind of a case by case basis. We have clients who... I'm out in Ventura County, and they go all the way out to the Help Group, and so that's a long ride. But it just... I would say if it's not working for your kiddo, then definitely speak up and figure something out. Thank you. And what can parents do when they disagree with the suggested placement? Well, that's part of parents’ rights and procedural safeguards, so that should be mapped out at the end of that lovely packet. You are asked if you need a copy of it probably most meetings, which you're only required to get once a year, but they probably ask you more than that. And so it lays out the process. Of course, you can disagree. So, again, California is a dual consent state, so in order for anything to move forward or be changed at all or added or removed from the IEP, it requires parental or guardian consent, right? So, that's number one. So, let's say they offer a change in placement to a more restrictive setting, and you disagree, you can sign with exceptions on the IEP and note specifically which pieces you are not in agreement with. So, in this case, let's say it's placement, in which case it would kick in to a stay put basically, and so the last agreed upon placement would continue. That can become really tricky if it's a preschool student and there is no previous placement. That's really the only time where that can be a bit of a bummer, because then the student just cannot start, right, because there was no previous placement. And then what should happen after that is trying to come to a resolution. So generally my experience is, districts will try to reconvene, try to talk it out a couple more times. I've seen districts leave stay put in place for years, and that's obviously not great because things get messy. Then you can go to mediation if you want. Well, you can backtrack. You can do an ADR meeting, like an alternative dispute resolution meeting with a district and see if you can get it resolved that way. And then you get into mediation and due process. Obviously that would be the end of the rope in terms of kind of your options, but that's really rare, so... And there’s something else that you had mentioned in the past, before we get to the, yes, because we have... Thankfully, we have those rights if we disagree, but if they're offering something that you don't agree and you want to see what else is available, which can really be a problem for a lot of parents. Like, well, what's even out there? And they're not telling you. You had mentioned that SELPAs have a listing, right, of all of the placements available? Yeah. Every SELPA should have... If you go on to your SELPAs website, they should have access to a slew, a plethora of information in terms of the county and within your SELPA guidelines, what's accessible and what's available, so check that out for sure. Out here, I know we also have VCOE, the Ventura County Office of Education website, and they don't necessarily have information for every district, but they have all of the county options, so those are obviously other programs that are available within the county for families to just be aware of. Your district website ideally should have at least which schools have which programs, as far as special education options, so you can be aware of that as well. And looks like Lillian is asking, “Isn't it true that placement doesn't really refer to a physical place or school? It's more about the type of program and services a student is receiving.” So, placement and location are not one in the same, I think, is what she's referring to. So, placement, yes, would refer to the type of program, the LRE. So, placement is either general education placement, or SDC class placement, or an SDC school placement, or a county program placement, or nonpublic school, that hierarchy, whereas location is just where that program is being offered. And so I have seen it happen a couple of times, and parents do not like this, where all of a sudden they move the student within the same campus from this teacher to this teacher without telling the family, and they're like, “Well, when did my kid’s teacher change?” And it's a whole different classroom, and they'll try to argue that was a change in placement, and it's not. It's a change in location, because they're still providing the same services. They're still offering the same program, they just changed the location. And I've seen schools also... I'm sorry, districts do that between schools, like, “Sorry, we have to move. Sarah from school A to school B. We're not changing, services. We're just changing the location.” So... Although you might want to write in your IEP that they still need to tell you. Oh, yeah. For sure. We definitely held them out on that. I actually get involved after usually. That's when they're like, “I'm calling an advocate,” but in their minds they're thinking they change my child's placement, and so we have to explain, technically they didn't. They're still offering all the same services. It's still the same level of credentialed teacher, it’s just a different teacher in a different location. And then you had mentioned preschool, and I was going to ask you this, and then we actually just got another question about it, too, but what is considered the least restrictive environment in preschool, especially in districts where there is no public preschool? Yeah, preschool is tricky. So, it's still protected under the law, but just kind of like you mentioned, it's a little bit different for a couple reasons. Preschool is not a mandated grade, so there's a little bit less structure, I guess, in that respect. And I kind of explain to parents, it's a little bit easier when you get to grade level in some respects because it's mandated for everyone, so in that respect, you have kind of options and accessibility to so much more no matter where you're at, right? Because all students have to be educated by law at that age, whereas preschool is not a mandated grade, so for that reason, there are many districts that don't even have a preschool program for general education students, let alone SpEd students, and if that's the case, then they don't have to. They don't have to have a program available because they aren't offering it to gen ed students either, so when that happens, which I was sharing with you as well last week, we had a a district out here where they didn't have it, so all of those students were getting referred to the county preschool program, and that was right around the time I had opened my business, and I kind of noticed the pattern, and I'm like, this just does not seem right. Why are all these kids being sent to this county program within this district? And it's a pretty small district too. And then I figured it out. They don't have any preschool, let alone... so you can work to get them to send to the... contract out to the nearest district that does offer the program that's necessary, or one of the kind of nice things about preschool that I would say is harder once you're there in grade school is the option for private funding like the private preschool tuition, because there may not be any other option, so they have to provide the services in the private preschool, and/or the home. They can also provide services in the home if it's like a daycare setting, and preschool is the only age where every IEP template is different, but it could be like a speech only IEP, so they may only get speech services and that's it. Like, there is no education component. And so that can also get tricky because parents are like, “Well wait a minute. So, you're not offering any classroom, but they're just going to get speech twice a week?” And that is something that can occur. And obviously then, parents... It would be up to the parents to provide access to some sort of actual academic program, if you will. And Lillian had a follow up to that. She said, “So if they're in a preschool, stay put would not really mean staying in pre-K, but rather staying in the program?” Kind of what you were talking about before. I think that was sort of her follow up to, if you moved to another school, but it's the same placement, right? So, even though it's not a change in placements... So, her question was, is it... stay put would not mean staying in pre-K, but rather staying in the program. Example: If it's an SDC, then they'd stay in an SDC with the same related services. -- Correct. So, a state... Yeah, it would be placement, not location. Yeah, the program. So, if the last agreed upon IEP was full day SDC preschool, then that would be the offer. Let's say they changed it for kindergarten to... just to make it simple, half and half, like 50% of the day in general and 50% in SDC, and for whatever reason, you had disagreement with placement, the stay put would be the full day SDC, because that was the last agreed upon placement. And we did touch on systemic issues earlier, and so if LRE is... Obviously it's a vital piece of FAPE, yet many parents.... for many parents, gen ed isn't even a consideration for their IEP team, and in fact, many families have a way easier time getting a nonprivate school placement than other parents have getting inclusion at their home school, so is this reality congruent with the law, or have we steered way off path from the intention of LRE? How are we supposed to think about it as parents? So, when you say nonprivate, do you mean nonpublic? Yes. Nonpublic school. Not... What did I say? NPS. Nonpublic school. What did I say? Non... Nonpublic school. Yes. My acronyms. I'm getting it all mixed up. It's Thursday but it really is a Friday in my head. -- Yeah. Okay. So, just so I'm understanding the question. Is it for some parents, it's easier to get a nonpublic school than... --Well, I guess the point of LRE... Was the point of LRE that children should be placed at their home school with supports as much as possible, because the reality for a lot of parents is that it's easier to get an NPS than it is to get that gen ed placement at your home school, yhat it's... it's such a fight. So, is this the way that LRE was intended, or is this just sort of the way that it's been, tight? I mean, are we... Should we be working to get closer to the law, or is this really is the law always a great thing and this is just the way it's been interpreted or abused, or is this just the way it is, right? How are we supposed to think about it? Oh, Lindsay. Okay, I may go on a soapbox. Well, I mean, first of all, I can't answer that question entirely because I didn't write the law, so I don't know what was going through anyone's mind when they wrote... You don't? I don't. I'm sorry. I'm just not that good. Obviously, I mean, I think as we look at the history of the law, there have been changes and I would argue changes for the better, such as... like we spoke to the Endrew F. case, so it's... and it's going to continue to change. I mean, it's changing and it will continue to evolve and change, and are there flaws? Absolutely. Is it because of the law in and of itself? In my personal opinion, no. I think that there are layers of problems when it comes to the implementation of the law, and, I mean, I've said this before and I'll say it again. I think a huge issue is that we are segregating students before we're getting to the students, because we're segregating teachers when they're getting their credential program, and to me, that is something that is huge, and if we all were... If all the teachers were aligned to... When I did my moderate to severe credential, we took, I think, maybe two classes with the gen ed credential teachers and then, let's say, had ten classes separate. That should be flipped, in my opinion, because how can we expect LRE if we're going to argue that the most least restrictive environment is a gen ed class? How can we expect that to work if all these gen ed teachers are coming out into the workforce and have no idea how to support these kids, and how can we blame them when they just went through a program and they don't know how to support these kids? So, I just think that there's flaws in that piece, and we can fight all day. To be honest, I can help a parent fight all day to get their kid in a gen ed class, and then what? Because if that gen ed teacher doesn't know how to teach your kid, then what’s the benefit to that? And then we have to fight for these inclusion specialists, and we have to fight for all these other things, and then that takes how much more time, and then by the time we get that, they’re then to the next teacher, because it took half the year to get all the things in place and to get it going, and then we have to do it all over again for every teacher, because these teachers don't have the knowledge and the background, and so it's never going to work, and gen ed is never going to be the most least restrictive placement for most of these kids until those teachers are fully equipped to include our kids. That's my opinion. I don't think it's just the law and how it's written. It's also the implementation of it, right? Right. But that's... I mean, that's why, I guess a lot of parents, they are... Like you said, it might take that six months, but what choice do you have other than... I mean, if this is really what your team and your child and your family thinks is best for them, that’s... I guess that's the point of the advocacy, just because it's just been so accepted that it's broken, so there is... There's so much work to do. But I think that's my point is, it shouldn't have to take that long. It shouldn't have to take six months, and I shouldn't have to bring three other people on top of the two people that are already in the room to make it work, right? And it shouldn't be that way. And I don't think that's because of the way the law is written as much as the way that we're... as much as the... how we are just creating these professionals and sending them out into the workforce and saying, “Okay, everyone thought and agreed that this kid belongs in your class. Make it work.” They need so much more support and so much more knowledge, and it’s a miss, in my opinion. Yeah. There's major systems work to do before the teachers are even getting to the schools within the schools, and then there's a huge... with the training, the support, and then there's the culture, and that’s an entirely different... an entirely different talk for us, so... But to wrap up, I did... We've talked about a lot and I know... I saw some questions coming in that are more general IEP questions that we can definitely go back in and maybe answer later, that didn't really fit into exactly what we're talking about today with FAPE or LRE, but there's a lot of good questions. Either Dr. Pelangka or somebody will get in there and definitely weigh in, but to end, what are the three most important things that parents should remember about FAPE? They’re going into that IEP meeting, or maybe they're... after they're thinking, am I signing this? What do I think? What are the three most important things that we need to remember about FAPE? Oh, the three most important things? I mean, it's all important. I guess I would say, number one is just really kind of remembering and understanding that all of it collectively is FAPE. So, it's not just placement. Placement, in and of itself, is not just FAPE. It's the IEP in its entirety, and your child's program in its entirety, so the goals, the accommodations, the services, and the placement, and all of that collectively makes FAPE what it is, to include even extended school year and transportation, and if any one piece of that is not happening or it's flawed, that would be potentially a violation of FAPE. And then, number two, of course, understanding kind of what we've been talking about today as far as least restrictive environment and really having a firm understanding of what that is and ensuring that your child's placement is providing that meaningful benefit to your individual child. And, of course, that doesn't mean that that placement is wrong because your child isn't progressing. You have to look at all those pieces to the IEP and those pieces to the puzzle first, right? The argument can't be made based on any one piece of the puzzle. One thing doesn't drive placement. It all collectively drives placement. And so making sure that you're kind of keeping tabs, and that's one of the biggest questions I get. Like, we have this perfectly written IEP. Now, how do I figure out if it's being implemented, right? Holding everyone accountable, because if the team comes back and tries to push you to... your child to a more restrictive setting when at the end of the day, the real issue is they weren't really implementing everything they should have been implementing, and that's why your child isn't progressing, then you need to be aware of that, and that's your right. And make sure that you're holding the team accountable and your kid isn't being moved due to their errors, right? And number three, I mean, I can't think of a third one off the top of my head. I think those are just all encompassing. Right. I was going to say, because, yeah, the first one is really... It's really looking at everything because access is always the first thing that comes to mind, but really that's a part of one and two that you talked about, right? Looking at everything as a whole in that IEP and knowing that it isn't just one factor, it's all of those things that have to come together to make it appropriate. And two, was looking really at the placement, right? Looking at the placement and making sure that your child was making progress, not having your child be blamed if they're not making progress, but again, looking at that whole big picture. Let's figure out... The whole purpose is that they are making purpose, they're getting educational benefit, and so, if it's not working, why? I guess a third one could be... We didn't really touch on this, but I know we've kind of been going month by month is, again, no one piece can drive placement in and of itself. So, a big one is knowing... for parents to know the offer of FAPE can’t be driven by evaluation scores in and of themselves. It's everything, like your child's performance in school, if they've been to school yet. Again, excluding preschool. How they're performing in the classroom, how they're performing on the campus. It's not just looking at evaluation scores and saying, “Well, they scored low, so they belong here.” That is not how FAPE works, and that's definitely not legal. So, making sure that that's not happening to your child, for sure. Which is way too common. Yes. Yes. That's why I'm, like, wait. That's a good one. -- Exactly. Very, very important point. Very important point. Thank you. I'm looking at the time and unfortunately it's time to wrap up, but thank you so much, Dr. Pelangka, for taking a very vast... Like, what is FAPE? It's sort of like asking, what's everything we need to know to make sure that our kids are getting from school what they should be getting legally, ethically, everything else. So, thank you for always shedding light and really breaking things down into small pieces. And we know that this can be extremely overwhelming, and if you don't want to go this alone, or if you want or need deeper support and a one-on-one guide to prepare you for that big IEP or talk through your placement request, or even someone to role play what you want to say in your IEP before your IEP, our Undivided Navigators would love to be your prep partner for this or anything else on your parenting plate, so to find out more information about how we can... how you can get this personalized support, check out our free 30 day Kickstart. Donna will put the link in the chat window. And our mission is to support you so your children can thrive, but we want you to thrive too, so reach out and let us know how we can help. So, thanks again to Dr. Pelangka for setting us straight and giving us a path, to Donna and Iris in the chat, and especially to all of you for stopping by Undivided Live. Have a beautiful weekend. Happy Saint Patrick's Day! Take a break and a breath. Maybe enjoy a green beer. Have fun. See you soon. Bye.