Lindsay Crain
Hello, and welcome to Undivided Live. I'm Lindsay Crain and I head the content and community teams at Undivided, and believe it or not, we are sprinting (or maybe limping depends on the day, but I'm gonna go with sprinting) towards the end of the year. And it always feels like there are a million things trying to squeeze into the last few months: open houses statewide assessments, school parties, field days, award ceremonies, staff appreciation, and yes, IEPs. So we know how busy you are. And we also know how stressful IEPS can be. So we want to relieve some of that pressure so that you can enjoy the fun stuff, too. So let's focus on the essentials.
So a couple of weeks ago, Lisa and I sat down, and we talked all about how to prep for your child's IEP, the “before.” So if you missed that event, you can find it here on our Facebook page, and I think Donna’s going to share that link. So today we're going to be focusing on the meeting itself. We're going to talk about putting all that hard prep work into action. So what are the most important things that we need to remember while advocating in the IEP meeting? How can we navigate all that's being declared and recommended while not losing sight of our biggest priorities? So we're going to boil down our meeting tips to five key points, including the red flags to watch out for.
So maybe you're someone who gets super nervous in the meeting. Or maybe you're close to everyone on the IEP team and you're feeling confident or relaxed. Or maybe you feel defensive and angry because your child isn't progressing, and you don't know if you can trust the people at the table. However you're feeling, we want what you want. We want your child to get what they need and what they deserve. And in order for that to happen, you need to feel empowered. So thankfully, we have just the woman here to help set that empowerment into motion: Undivided education advocate and navigator Lisa Carey. Lisa has advocated for hundreds of families during IEPs, including her own. She's also the mother of three boys with disabilities. Hello, Lisa, welcome back.
Lisa Carey
Hi. I'm excited to be here today.
Lindsay
Yes, we are always excited to see you, and Lisa and I were talking really just before this, and she's getting like, you know, IEP notices. We know parents are getting them. They don't know why, it is just that time of year. So we're glad that we're all here together to work through it together. And with us is also our Community Manager Donna and one of our Undivided Navigators, Iris, they're going to be in the chat with you. They're going to be sending your questions to me and Lisa, so please throw those in the chat, we're going to get to what we can. And if you still have questions after today, or you want one-to-one support, our Navigators love IEP prep, which is made easy with our step-by-step guides and the undivided digital super binder, all housed in our desktop and mobile app. So Donna’s going to share a link where you can learn more about our free Kickstart where you can start working with a navigator within days. And don't forget about our free resources, Donna’s going to share that link to our resource hub where you're going to find all the article links that we're going to be sharing throughout our chat today. And there's a lot plus lots more where that came from. We cover everything from Regional Center to IEPs, to Self-Determination, and IHSS. So check that out.
And for now though, we are ready to start our countdown to the five most important things to remember when advocating in an IEP.
So okay, number one: you are the most important person on the IEP team, other than your child.
Yes, really. So Lisa, this might be hard for some parents to believe, so please explain why this is true.
Lisa
Yeah, absolutely. So there's a couple of reasons why, right. So the first reason is you are the expert on your child. You know your child better than anybody else on that team. And not only that, you are the only member of that IEP team who will be a member of the IEP team from now until your child is done with school. So the rest of the team members will change out as your child moves from grade to grade, but you're going to be the constant. And the second reason is that is the whole point of IDEA, you know, which is the federal law on IEPs, the whole point of that is to provide your child FAPE, a free appropriate public education. And the second point of it is to facilitate meaningful parent parental participation. So you're definitely the most important people in the room as parents.
Lindsay
Absolutely. And despite everything that you just said, and every parent's intuition that their knowledge about their child definitely matters, the intimidation factor: it can be a powerful beast, right? I mean, you see a bunch of experts sitting across the reel or proverbial table, and it's easy for parents to second guess themselves, their priorities and their asks. So how can parents battle the intimidation factor?
Lisa
Well, I'm gonna steal one of your lines. Lindsay, right: Don't IEP alone. So bring a friend or bring an advocate. I have three boys who have IEPs, and I bring an advocate to every meeting, even though I am an advocate, when it's my own kids, right, there's that emotion factor. So bring someone with you, that can certainly help. And if you're able, if your child has private therapists, a speech therapist, or anybody like that you can bring, you know, ask them to come too at least for that part of the meeting, when they talk about, you know, you bring your speech therapist when they're talking about speech, if that's something you're able to navigate.
Lindsay
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, if you do bring someone with you, and we hope you do, even with an extra set of eyes and ears, there's a lot of info flying around, right? I mean, your mind is going from one priority into the next. And it can be beneficial to record the IEP meetings, so you're not relying solely on your memory or your notes. So Lisa, I'd love for you to share sort of the rules around recording as well as reasons we might consider recording the meeting and reasons we might not want to.
Lisa
Well, I can't think of any reason not to. Well, I mean, I guess some people feel like it's adversarial to ask to record and they don't want to set that kind of tone. What I tell families is if you make it your policy to always audio record every meeting, then when there is something adversarial, when there is a disagreement, it's always been your policy.
In California, you need to give 24 hours notice that you plan to record (audio record), and you can do that simply by sending an email and say that you're going to audio record the meeting. Most districts will not allow Zoom recording. So a lot of parents just want to hit record on Zoom. Most districts won't allow that, though there are some that will do that. But they won't share it with you most likely. So just do your own audio recording, you know, with your phone or whatever you have.
Lindsay
All right. So we've now established you're the most important person on that team. And you know, get your people there with you. Right, you know, whoever that is. And so the number two, right, you're really important, and so it's very good to be prepared and know your ask. So obviously being as organized as possible is helpful. So then you can stay focused, you can stay on track, you can find what you need. So Lisa, how can we go into the meeting, feeling in control of all that we want to accomplish? Right, our concerns, our priorities, and our questions?
Lisa
Yeah, so one of the things I do before an IEP meeting, either with my clients or even for my own kids, is I create a priority list (this is not something that I will share with the school because it's usually just little blurbs) of the things that are important for me to cover in that meeting. And it helps me, it's like an agenda for myself, it helps me make sure that everything that I wanted to cover is covered in case we get sidetracked or I forget. And most of the time, when you get to the end of the meeting, the person leading the meeting will ask if there's any other concerns. And that's usually a moment where I say, Hang on, let me look at my list and make sure that everything was covered.
Lindsay
Right? Absolutely. I mean, even with the best intentions of thinking, like, “I know exactly what I want to cover,” things are gonna come up, you're gonna need to take notes, things are gonna get sidetracked, priorities are gonna come up you didn't even realize we're priorities. And it's really important to just keep that list, even if you have them memorized and you've been, you know, looking at them for weeks or thinking about it for a year, right, it is good to have that list to keep yourself on track. And something we touched on, Lisa, during our last event about IEP prep, something that helps me is just that I organize my documents and my notes in the order that my district runs meetings, and then I'm not searching for what I need throughout the entire meeting. And Lisa, we did talk about this at the last event but I did want to touch on, is there anything else that you want to add about organization? Just to kind of set the stage?
Lisa
Well, I mean, just like we talked about helping our kids with, you know, who might have executive dysfunction or executive functioning issues, find systems that work for them. I think it's important that you find a system that works for you.
The one of the ways that I do it is very low tech, I use post it notes that stick out the documents so that I can find. So for example, if they're talking about services, and I don't remember, “Did my child or my client have 30 minutes a week or 60 minutes a week? I can't remember,” I can quickly flip to that section because I have, you know, put a little tab that says “Services.” That's one way of doing it. But that's what's works for my brain, you have to find a way that works for your brain.
Lindsay
Right. Absolutely. And I mean, all of that organization really then leads us to the second part of number two, which is know your ask. And, you know, you can't be too organized Lisa, we're trying to say, but what do we need to know about know our ask?
Lisa
So if you're new to IEPs, this can feel a little bit overwhelming. So what I recommend is that you have a good idea of what it is you think is going to work for your child going into the meeting. Try to be specific if you can. Think about what works at home, what works at therapies. If you're new to the IEP, don't worry if it's not in the correct format that the school wants to see, right, just have an idea of, you know, of what works. For example, if at home, if transitions are difficult for your child, and at home, you do a specific way that helps prevent meltdowns, then that might be something that you want to introduce to the team and ask them to use as an accommodation. So just, you know, kind of have an idea of what works and what doesn't, and jot it down, you know, so you're prepared to share that, and you know, when appropriate in the meeting.
Lindsay
Right. Absolutely. And when we're talking about getting organized, there's people who are going to organize for a year, and there's some that are going to do it a week before. So like Lisa said, whatever works for you, right, but we want to present facts and data when we can. But you know, you touched on this a little a moment ago, Lisa, but emotions can also be a huge part of the IEP, you know, whether they're up front and center, or whether they're just, you know, boiling inside of you. So Lisa, we don't want parents to be robots, of course, there's going to be emotions, but we also want the ask to be rooted in more than feelings. So can you touch on that?
Lisa
Yeah. It's okay to have, I mean, shouldn't say it's okay, it's almost required, right, you're gonna be emotional. And it's hard because this is your kid, it's totally normal to be overwhelmed and angry, and whatever it is you're feeling.
One of the ways that, you know, when I said find a system that works for you, it applies here, too, right? You know yourself best. Figure out how you can rein that in so that you can make sure that you're staying productive and professional. You can take a break if needed any time, whether that's to step outside, or turn your camera off and mute and screen, which, you know, I've never done that.
You know, find a system that works and to be a little bit more specific to what your question was, you know, how to make sure what it is you're asking for is not just coming from emotions.
When you're preparing for the IEP meeting, just try to think about why you're asking for what you're asking and think about the whys behind it. I just literally today had a meeting with a client and the client was telling me that the school is not chunking the work for the child like they're supposed to be. And I believe the parent. Everything he said sounded logical, but then I asked him, “How do you know that?” And it took a minute to think about it, because that's what the IEP team is going to want to hear. They don't want to hear “Well, I think or I feel,” I want to know what makes you come to that conclusion.
And if you can think about those things in advance, if you are feeling overwhelmed or intimidated, at least you'll have an answer, you know, already thought through.
Lindsay
Yeah, again, the way my brain works, when I'm organizing throughout the meeting, and I know we're gonna be talking about a reading goal, I have like sort of in red, you know, in my notes, it's like the concerns, you know, what do I want to say, I have some points under that. So if I am losing, you know, what's in my head and what I prepared, it's right there. And, you know, it's just, it's a backup, right? But that's me, I'm like an over preparer, and I get a lot in my head, and I can easily like, lose where I am. But I also like what you said, Lisa, because I also try when I know my ask, and I know what I'm going to be requesting, I also think, Okay, what have I heard them say? If there's maybe some disagreement about this, what have they said in the past? What are they going to ask me? And I think about exactly like what you just said, I think about what am I going to say? When they say this, you know, how am I going to be prepared? Because for some things, you know it's coming, others you don't right, you can't try to prepare for everything under the sun. And as I'm sure you can attest, Lisa, there's some things that you can never expect. But the things that you know, or that had been frequent conversations, you know, prepare for how that conversation could go.
Lisa
Yeah, yeah.
Lindsay
Did you have something else to add there, Lisa?
Lisa
No, no, I just was thinking about what you were saying. And it's so true. Because even as an advocate, there's always those questions where I'm thinking like, gosh, I didn't think of that. So it's okay if you don't think of everything, just the things that are important make sure that you've given thought to.
Lindsay
Yeah, the stuff that you know that you're going to be asking for, you know, try to have your ducks in a row as much as you can.
Lisa
Right. Right, exactly.
Lindsay
So number one, you're the most important person on the team. Got that covered. Two, be prepared and know your ask. Okay.
You're on it. So number three, learn to spot the red flags. So remember, as we all know, it's easy to second guess your instincts when experts are presenting their perspectives. And that's not to say that we shouldn't consider all perspectives—we should enter into every IEP with the intention and the hope of collaboration. But that intimidation factor, as we discussed, can passively leak into our psyche. And we can normalize, you know, comments, practices, or opinions that are repeated enough times where they're presented with authority. So it's important that we learn to spot common red flags. So we're going to do an overview of a bunch of red flags that can come up during an IEP meeting. So Lisa, let's start with present levels. So hopefully, we've had a chance to review these in a draft before the meeting. But regardless, what are the red flags around present levels?
Lisa
One of the things that I like to look for is balance, okay. Is the present levels balanced? I have a true story from an IEP that I recently attended. The child was having some behavioral difficulties, we knew that going into the IEP, right.
And the teacher did present levels. And because we were recording, I was able to accurately gauge this, it felt like she was talking forever about the negatives about this child. Okay. At the end of her present levels, I looked at my recording, and she had spent 30 seconds sharing the child's strengths, and nine and a half minutes talking about everything that the child is not doing well. And it was soul crushing. And I called the teacher on it. You know, those poor parents. And how are we going to write IEPs that are strength based, that are using our children's strengths, if that's what's being presented? So one of the things you're going to want to look for is balance. And if they're not balanced, I would ask why. You know, think of a polite way to say, “Is there really only 30 seconds of good you can share about my kid, because I assure you, there's more,” but they were overly focused on the negative.
Lots of opinions and fluff and not much substance in those present levels, right? Look for that, you know, a present level isn't an assessment, it's not going to be written like an assessment report, where everything has to be objective. It is okay to have some subjective things in there, right. But if the entire thing is subjective, and very, you know, fluff, I wonder how accurate that is, you know. Because what I want to see in a present level is what the child is accomplishing and where the child is struggling. But a lot of present level that's just, you know, “is a kind of member of the class” and “loves to help,” like it just like, okay, that's all really great, and I do want to hear that about my kid. But I also want to know how they're actually doing in the class. And ask lots of questions. Like I just said, ask lots of questions about those present levels if there's anything in there. If they say the child loves to help in the classroom, ask them what that means. Who are they helping—the teachers, the other students? You know, ask questions, so you can get a better feel for what's going on in the day-to-day of your child.
Lindsay
I really love that, Lisa. And like you said, we all love to read like, “Oh, they love music,” and they're, you know, enjoying, and that's great to know what their mood is, but like, what are they doing in school? Right? Because the whole idea is from this year to next year, we can look at those present levels and say, “Great, this is how this is how she's reading this year.” And as you're looking at the IEP the next year, you can really compare where was she last year to where is she this year. It needs to be, like you said, not an assessment, but it needs to be specific, not just, you know. And that, by the way, can be strength based. So you know, it doesn't have to be all the negativity, it's “Great, where are they?” And so you can see that here.
Alright, so goal review. Alright, so this is what we talked about progress towards the goals this past year, what are the red flags here?
Lisa
So if a goal was not met, or was partially met, I think that a good strategy is to ask the team if they have an idea why. Because when we write the goals, we’re supposed to be realistic, right? Everybody on the team should be in agreeance, and you are part of the team, should be in agreeance that this goal can be met in a year's time. So you know, if you have 10 goals, and one of them's partially met and nine of them are met, great, that's probably pretty good, right? But if most of them are not met or only partially met, ask questions. To me that's a red flag when many of the goals have not been met or only partially met. And something that's really been effective is asking if the team has an idea what happened. What went wrong? Why did they think the goals weren't met? It's interesting to hear what people say because they're not always expecting that kind of a direct question, I think.
Lindsay
Oh, I love that. And, as the reminder, right, the answer should not be to blame your child or their disability, right? It's like, all right, great. What's going on? Now, how are we going to address that?
Lisa
At the time the goal was written, we knew the child had a disability, right? So if the answer was your child was out for two and a half months because they had surgery, okay, that's probably valid. And it happens, right? But otherwise, they should not be blaming the child. Unless something very significant has changed since the goal was written.
Lindsay
Right, right. Because then it's like, great, what other supports do we need to write in? What else do we need to do to make sure, like, if that comes up? And it doesn't always have to be some malicious, like, “your child did this wrong,” but it's like, “Well, you know, Lisa, you know, was really non-compliant. So, you know, she just wouldn't address it.” It's like, what else could we have done then to make sure that Lisa was successful? And just always reframe that in your mind too, because it's easy as you're going along to kind of get in that groove, if that's sort of the tone of the meeting. And again, it doesn't even have to be overtly negative. But always reframe in your mind, when we're talking about things that aren't happening. What do we need to do to make your child successful? And just, you know, framed that way.
Alright, so we started to touch on this, Lisa. But so we talked about goal review, new proposed goals, right? So the goals we're talking about for next year, you know, sitting in reviewing goals in a meeting can be really overwhelming when they feel like they're written in a different language. So what are our red flags around a bad or just like, inappropriate goal?
Lisa
Well, the need for the goal should have been reflected in the present levels. So if they're saying that there's a goal that you never heard to this point in the meeting, that that this wasn't a need for the child, that's obviously a red flag.
Goals that are too narrow or too broad. That is another one, right?
If you have a super narrow goal that doesn't leave room for growth, you know, if you're, for example, wanting a child to communicate better, and they use ASL, and they're working on verbal utterances, and they're getting an AAC, and they put in the goal “Using ASL child will…” well, that's a little bit narrower if the goal is to get the child to communicate to express wants or needs, right. Too broad, you know, it has to be measurable. When it's too broad and has too many things in it, like multiple goals written into one goal. That's one that I've seen where the goal really should be two goals or three goals.
And then the last thing and the most important thing for me is the stranger rule. If you hand this IEP to someone who doesn't know your child, will they understand what the school is about and supposed to look like and supposed to be measuring? And that's a really important one. Because if your child moves schools or moves districts or, you know, the parent gets a promotion or relocates to a new city, will the new teacher even understand what the child’s supposed to be working on? And so you want to apply the stranger when you look at it.
Lindsay
I love that. That's a good one. Because even with good intentions, I've heard sometimes it's like, alright, well, we have it here. I know, it's a little complicated. But we all know how we're tackling this. So I love the idea of like, again, if it's not written down, then you know, it didn't happen. Same thing with a goal, right? I mean, it needs to be written so anyone can understand that. I love that, it's a great reminder. Also, just an FYI, our newsletter this week is centered around goals. And we have a series of articles that are going to help you break down, rewrite, and identify red flags for IEP goals. So you're gonna see before and afters on a bunch of goals. So hopefully, your brain will start recognizing what needs to be tweaked, changed, or maybe scrapped. So be on the lookout, our newsletters come out every Thursday. So you can sign up at the link that Donna just shared if you're not already getting our newsletter.
So all right, Lisa, related services. So our children's providers, they're sharing a ton of information, right, including proposed minutes right at the end, after they're talking about everything we're talking about, you know, goal review proposed, you know, the present levels, goal review, and new goals. So what is a big red flag that we need to be aware of when they're going over all this information?
Lisa
Well, I mean, I don't know if I want to say a big red flag, but something to just ask about and be aware about is if a service is written as a consult only.
Sometimes that is actually appropriate. Sometimes that's what is needed for your child and it's fine. So I'm not saying a consult only is necessarily bad. But I want you to make sure that you understand what it looks like and what it means. Because sometimes parents don't catch that that means that they're not working directly with the child. And sometimes that means that the provider, like let's say, it's an OT who's on consult, the provider may not actually see or interact with your child at all. They're available to the teacher should the teacher need, you know, some suggestions or troubleshoot something that might be going on. And that might be appropriate, like I said, for some kids. I just want parents to make sure when they see that, that they understand what that's gonna look like.
Lindsay
Absolutely. And just FYI, we're going to be covering a bunch more related service red flags in a minute. So we'll be able to probably get some of those big red flags there in a minute. Okay, common scenario, Lisa, people leaving or being excused early in an IEP? Is this a red flag? Or is this all fine?
Lisa
Well, it depends. So, let's say, you have your child's IEP meeting, you go to a part two. And you are good with everything that was said, for example, by the APE, the adaptive PE teacher, and maybe the physical therapists. You have no questions, you have no concerns for them. And all that's really left is you need to go over the speech report because it was late. Then it might be appropriate to say to the APE and the PT that they don't need to come and you can excuse them.
When is it not appropriate? It's not appropriate if you're discussing placement. Pretty much ever. And in every IEP, technically, you're supposed to discuss placement. But if you're going to be arguing against the placement the school wants, or if you're going to be trying to get a different placement, you're going to want to have the team there. A lot of times when they're only going to offer, for example, a special day class, they won't invite a general ed teacher and ask you to excuse the general ed teacher, which, how can you discuss a general ed placement if there's no general ed teacher in the meeting? So it really depends.
Lindsay
It happens all the time!
Lisa
Right, right, right. It really depends on the circumstances. I would definitely encourage people to not feel pressured to to excuse people. If you're not sure that you might need them, ask them to stay. And if they really can't, then ask for a part two or part three, there's nothing wrong with that. It's fine. And I encourage you to do that if you feel you need them.
Lindsay
Right. And on that note of maybe needing a part two or three, can the team put a time limit on the IEP? Or is this a red flag?
Lisa
Yeah, so I'm going to go backwards a tiny bit and just say, generally speaking, I don't like excusing people, just to kind of get that out there. But it's not a hard and fast rule, like I said. I often will excuse, for example, APE because they are not going to have much to contribute in like the area of speech, for example, just, for example. So time limit on the IEP, yeah, they can put a time limit on a meeting, but they can't put a time limit on the IEP. So the meeting is the actual time that you're meeting with them.
So if they're only available from 1:00 to 2:00, great, then have your meeting from 1:00 to 2:00. And let's go ahead and schedule the part two now. Because we know we're not going to get done in an hour, I will do that.
But they can't put a time limit and say we have to complete the IEP in this span of time, because you guys need to go over everything you need to go over. And as parents, you have the ability to ask all of your questions and make sure you understand everything. And whatever amount of time that takes is whatever amount of time that takes.
Lindsay
Absolutely. And I know Lisa, when we were talking earlier, you said that you have an internal time clock. And I thought that might be interesting to share only because I know some people are like “I'm camping out. We're staying all day.” And maybe that works for some brains. A lot of school districts are not going to let that happen, but some might, right? But Lisa, I don't know if you wanted to share sort of your, you know, the way your brain works.
Lisa
So as a mom, my youngest son has Down syndrome. And we had, I think it was a triennial IEP. And it was very collaborative. It was great meeting. It went four and a half hours. And that was when I said, “Nope. Never again am I ever going to sit in an IEP meeting this long.” And so my limit is two hours. And I let parents know that too when I'm working with them. And the reason is because I think two hours, most people's brains, like that really long meeting by the time I got to the end of it I was like “What?” like I could not process what was being said to me, I was done. So I typically tell parents, we're going to schedule it for two hours, we need more than two hours, we'll schedule a part two.
And I think it's important to know, like, your limit because it's a lot of information that you're not being asked to process. And four and a half hours, in my example, that's a ridiculously long time to continue processing and being able to respond and think at a high level.
Lindsay
Exactly, yeah. And that's why that's why I asked, I hope I didn't put you on the spot. But because I know some people are like, we're going all day and others it's like this is what I can do. If you need to take a break, whether you have a two hour, four hour ,or one hour meeting, right, if you need to take a break, if you're on Zoom, if you need to turn your camera off, you can ask for a break, right? I mean, you know, just you want to be able to be present ,be focused. So again, you're a team member, so do do what works for you, as much as you can with the rest of the team as well you’re working with.
Alright, so those are some big parts of the IEP, we talked about, you know, really sort of like, Alright, here's a red flag to kind of, you know, look for all of these. Now, I wanted to review some phrases that are frequently overheard in IEP meetings, unfortunately, and these are definitely like red flag phrases. So I would love for you, Lisa, to summarize what a parent and can consider if they hear these words during their child's IEP. So the first one is one of our favorites. And I'm sure as an advocate, you love this one: “We don't do that here.”
What can a parent say to this?
Lisa
You know, as a parent, right in the middle of an IEP meeting, because you got to remember now, well you might be at your computer, but you know what I mean, you're not in a Facebook group, you're not talking to your friends, you're in an IEP meeting, what I would do is I would ask why. Why don't you do that here? Can you explain that to me? Can you help me understand? Is that a policy? Can I have a copy of that policy? And then after the meeting, because of course you don't sign the IEP in the meeting right? After the meeting, you're going to ask. If you're with Undivided, you can go and ask your Navigator about it. Or you can use Google or a friend or whatever resources you have to try and get some more information. One example I'm going to give of this is rec therapy, recreational therapy, RT. There are many, many districts that still say, “We don't do that here.” Well, guess what? It's actually spelled out as a related service in the California Education Code. You can Google that.
The department of education in California says it's a related service.
So just because they say they don't do something doesn't mean that that's okay. And that situation, we followed up with it with an email letting them know that it says it here. And, you know, if they don't do that, we'd like to get an IEE for that.
Right. Now, usually when you do that, then they'll do it. But start with asking why.
Lindsay
Always. Right. Yes. Because that's something that you might hear a lot. And they might not do that there, but they might actually have to. So definitely ask the why and then figure out your next steps. So all right, Lisa, “It's okay if your child reaches their goal, we'll just keep working on more after that.” So I've heard that more than once.
Lisa
Yeah, you know, I would almost like you know, want to say let's go backwards and put this in the red flags, because that is a red flag, right, when they say that because when I hear that, usually what I'm actually hearing is the school has a low expectation of your child. And the goal is probably not appropriately ambitious. Okay, so your goal should be ambitious enough that your child makes progress. And yes, it needs to be realistic. It's a really kind of a hard, you know, line to walk, right? How do we be realistic and ambitious, right?
But if you think the goal is too easy, then that's not an acceptable response from the district. So you need to, you know, make the goal harder, or add some things in it, or change it, or whatever needs to be done, depending what the goal is.
Lindsay
Well, and Lisa, just as a follow up, then if a child meets their goal, you know, in the middle of the year, are we supposed to be calling an IEP meeting to set a new goal, or what should parents do in that situation?
Lisa
So it depends on your relationship with the school and the amount of transparency you're seeing. So if your child has reached the goal, let's just say the goal is to, I'm going to pick something super easy, write all their letters in lowercase, or I guess we do uppercase first, write all the letters uppercase. And you notice two months later they're doing it. Reach out to the teacher and ask the teacher about it and get a feel for it. There are some situations where you might have a good enough relationship with the school where they say, Okay, we're gonna start working on the lowercase now. And you can see that because they're coming home, so you know what's happening, right?
The goals are supposed to be in addition to the regular content that's going on. So if your kid is in kindergarten, or first grade, they're all supposed to be learning to write their letters anyways. So it's really going to be a case-by-case situation. There's some schools where I would say, Yeah, this team is great, and they're being responsive, we can see what's coming home. And there's other schools where I'd be like, I'm not so sure, let's, you know, see if we can add some goals.
Lindsay
Right. Got it. Okay, so here's some of the red flag statements relating to related services that I said would be coming. All right. “So your child isn't talking. So he doesn't need speech,” or “He's not making progress in OT, so we're gonna cut the service.” What does the parent say to that?
Lisa
Oh, geez. Ask for an assessment. I mean, there's a lot I could say here about how ridiculous that is that we hear. But if they want to end a service, or change a service, ask for an assessment.
Lindsay
And let's then look at the opposite, right, “Hurray, your child met their OT goals, so we're going to cut services.” What about that?
Lisa
Ask for an assessment, ask for an assessment. Great, let's do an assessment. Because they may have met their OT goals, and they may be ready to graduate from OT, or they may have met their OT goals, and they need different goals to work on something different. Right? And we're not going to know that if we don't do an assessment most likely.
Lindsay
Right. Great point. Absolutely. It's sort of the unspoken continuation of like, “we don't do that here.” It's sort of like, well, great, this is what we're doing. But there needs to be something to look back to, to say we're ending this. So if you want to end this, that needs to be reflected, we’d like an assessment to see what you're seeing. Right?
Lisa
Yep. Exactly.
Lindsay
And so what about like, “the ultimate goal is to phase out services. And since your child is getting older, we're gonna cut services.”
Lisa
Let's do an assessment.
If you're gonna want to, for example, remove an aide right? First off, I don't recommend anybody ever just go from like having a one-to-one aide to no aide, right? That's a bad plan. Even if the child is doing fantastic, even if you as the parent think, “Oh, my kid doesn't need an aide anymore.” Great. I'm thrilled to hear that because that is the goal. So what I recommend is you're going to look at whatever that service is, you're going to look at where they have in the past needed it the most, right, and then maybe kind of removed from the other. So let's just say your child's needed help the most in the core academic subjects, but they have a one-to-one, then maybe try, you know, first having the aide completely fade to the background for everything but those academic services. So maybe the aide should go across the room and do something else, right? They're still there, but they're not helping and see how that goes. And if that goes great, then maybe do the same thing for those academic subjects, right, and then maybe go to half a day or something like that. I do not recommend you do this at the end of the school year or the beginning of a school year. Because you know, end of the school year means at the beginning of the next school year, there's no way. You want to start the new school year with an aide. And I don't recommend you do this right after a return from a break like winter break or spring break. But otherwise, test it out, do a fade, you know, before you sign it away. Test it out.
Lindsay
It's great, it's a really great tip.
All right. I've heard this one way too many times from parents. “You can't take your AAC or AT device home on the weekends.”
What do parents say?
Lisa
Yeah, so we can do a whole thing about AAC, and it's definitely not my area of expertise as far as you know, best practices. But the best practice is: this is your child's voice. You can't take it away, period. When they give your child an AAC device, it should be with your child 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, with the exception of small chunks of time during the school day when they might need to update the app or do a backup or clean it or change a new case or whatever. Right. And if a school is telling you that, I would start with making sure the speech therapist is involved in this conversation because that is not best practices. Second, I would ask them to show you their policy. I have yet to find a district that actually has this policy because that's not the way it's supposed to work. You will have to sign a document that you're going to take care of it and whatever the document says, but it should be with your child all the time, including summers, including summer break. Summer holidays, everything.
Lindsay
Right. All right. This next one is a favorite of yours. Lisa, you already touched on it a little earlier. “You have to sign the IEP before you leave the room.” What do you say?
Lisa
Well, the answer to that is inappropriate to say on a Facebook Live.
What I thought when you asked, but no, you don't have to sign the IEP. You do have to sign attendance, which is acknowledging you were there and you participated in the meeting. But you do not have to consent to the IEP.
Actually, you don't have to consent to the IEP ever, right? If you didn't want to. So there is no requirement that you sign it within any certain amount of time, whether it's that day in the room or within five days or within 15 days, that doesn't exist. You take it home, you review it, and you take your time, just know that services that are new will not be started until you sign it.
Lindsay
Good point. Yeah. Okay, another favorite. “Your child should be with other kids like them, and they would be happier in a specialized setting.”
What do we say to that, Lisa?
Lisa
You know, I'm going to be honest with you. With that said to me an IEP, I'm going to say, can you explain to me what like that means? And then I'm going to just be quiet and watch them squirm. Because that's ridiculous.
And I would point out that the children in the general education setting, for example, because that's what this question kind of sounds like, that the children in the general education setting really look like them to me, they all seem to have, you know, they all seem to like to play outside. And they all seem to, you know, be here to learn. And I would just, I don't even know how I would entertain that and not be extraordinarily sarcastic. But I would really try because we want to be very cooperative in the meetings.
I would think I would probably say, “Well, how exactly are these kids not like my child?” and then I would just bite my tongue and wait and see what they come up with.
Lindsay
It's not an appropriate comment, if you're talking about placement, and you're having a real conversation about what you know, is most appropriate for that child. That comment doesn't belong in that conversation. Right?
Lisa
Not at all. It's very inappropriate. Yeah.
Lindsay
Okay, and last one of these, “Your child is significantly delayed, and we should be focusing on functional goals.” So that's something that comes up time and time again, Lisa. So how do we handle that?
Lisa
Most people when they say functional goals, so there's two ways the phrase functional goals is used. One of them is when they're talking about functional academic goals. And functional academic goals are talked about when a child is really, really delayed, and they're talking about really working on the basics, right? Like the basics, okay. And then there's functional where they're talking about, we're gonna teach your child to do laundry and wash dishes.
If that is not appropriate for your child, then you can absolutely push back and let them know that you work on those skills at home, and they're at school to learn. There are some high schoolers, especially in the adult transition program, where the parents feel that is what's best for their child. And that's absolutely okay because that's what's best for their child.
But if you feel like you want the school to focus on academics, and you're going to focus on the laundry, and grocery shopping and ATMs and stuff, then you can push back and let them know that for sure.
Lindsay
So we've covered lots of red flags. Hopefully, you will see more than just red during your IEP. But now it's time for number four. And you've touched on this actually throughout, Lisa. So it's get the why and the who. Why is your request being denied? Why are certain recommendations being supported over others? If there are questions, disagreements, confusion, or red flags going off, you want to get an answer to why, and you want the answer on record. So Lisa, why is getting the why essential, and how do we do that?
Lisa
Well, I think that if something is being recommended that, you know, isn't common sense to you or it doesn't jive, it doesn't fit with what you're thinking, asking why can certainly give you a lot of information about what the school is thinking. One of the best advocacy skills is asking questions, and then letting the school answer and letting them talk. Because a lot of times, they'll share more information than you're expecting them to, surprisingly. And also, a lot of times, they don't really know why. And that's really surprising to find out, you know. A lot of times the real reason why is because that's what they do with those kids. “Well, all the kids with autism are in that classroom. That's why.” But that's not individualized. That's not a reason why your kid’s in that classroom, or, “Well, all our kids who have low vision, go here and do this.” So sometimes they don't even know what the why would be as it's applicable to your child. So definitely ask why. And if their why doesn't make sense, ask for more clarification. You can also ask for data, you can ask to see the policy. If they say, “Well, all the kids with autism go in that classroom.” Oh, can I see the policy on that? Because there isn't, I assure you.
If it’s not written down or on the audio recording, it didn't happen. So just you know, it's good to ask in the IEP meeting. And if you don't think of it, you can ask in an email later, and see how that feels and see what you get.
Lindsay
Yeah, absolutely. And this goes with sort of what we're talking about now. And actually, what we were talking about previously, I think this was probably in response to the functional goals, but it can also go with the why. Carrie said, they so often say, “Well, things are moving too fast for them.” And I often get hung up on it, because the fact is, it's true.
So what do you you know, what would you say to Carrie, and to others, because I know this is a really common thing, if it's this is about the functional goals conversation, you know, about the red flag, but again, you know, you're there, you're assessing what's right for your child. I think that's probably what you were responding to Carrie. But you know, what, how should we respond?
Lisa
Well, I think that understanding, I mean, I'm not going to ask for an assessment, but referring to the assessment, understanding how your child learns best is going to be key and not always easy, right? It's definitely hard to figure that out with a lot of our kids, but working to understand how your child learns.
And also understanding if it moves too fast for your child. First, is that true or not? And if it's true, right, does that still mean that they shouldn't be included? Because I think that's where that question is coming from, from the sounds of it. And oftentimes, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be included, because there are ways. You know, are they going to learn everything there is to learn about a subject matter in a classroom if it's going too fast for them? No. But will they be exposed to that subject? Will they learn something about that subject? Probably, you know, if all the kids are learning about mammals, right, just because it's going too fast, do we say that we don't want to teach our kid about mammals? Of course not. Our kid may not come out knowing every single aspect, right and ready to take a long written test on it. But they'll come home and say we talked about whales today.
Right, so at least they get something, however they communicate. But I do think having an understanding of how your child learns is probably helpful.
Lindsay
Right, and going back to “Okay, great. So we need to do some different kinds of modifications, and how can we better support our child?” Right, the answer isn't always just, you know, take them out.
Lisa
I think the answer is often not take them out. Because every kid has a right to be exposed to the same learning standards and the same principles and content as a typical developing kid. And not every typically developing kid is going to get the same thing out of every lesson either, by the way, so.
Lindsay
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Again, it's reframing right? Reframing in our minds and reframing, which sometimes it doesn't matter, right, they’re still gonna go on the same narrative, but at least you know, you'll be going on yours. So I guess then we talked about the why right. The last was get the why and the who and so Lisa, with the who, we have to identify who is going to be responsible for carrying out everything in your child's IEP. So Lisa, what do we need to watch for and ask for around who's doing what?
Lisa
You're gonna want to look at, for example, in the goals, right? Who's responsible for the goals? Who's going to be working with your child on the goal? Is that the SLP? Is that the teacher? Who is it? And a lot of times having more than one person or more than one provider or specialist on a goal is a good idea too, you know, if the goal is using the iPad, or AAC, excuse me, using the AAC, to ask for have their wants and needs met, right? Well, an SLP needs to be on that goal because they're going to be teaching your child how to use that iPad or that AAC device. But you also want to have the teacher on the goal because the teacher’s with the child and the teacher can work with the child too on, you know, you want the child to ask and have their wants and needs met outside of that 30-minute session with the SLP. It should be incorporated throughout the day, right? So you can have more than one person on a goal.
And you can also find out who's going to be responsible for carrying out the accommodations and the modifications, who's doing those modifications? And does the person doing the modifications have the knowledge to do those modifications? Do they know how?
Lindsay
And again, get that written in the IEP because you know, when you talk about it, and then you get down to the brass tax of who's doing this. And it's like, “Well, I didn't have time, it wasn't built in,” you want everything you want in the IEP. And I love your point on having multiple people on IEP goals. And also think about, like with your AAC example, I mean, does your does your child have, you know, a vision impairment? So do they have like a vision specialist that's working with them? They can be on that goal, like just trying to make sure because, again, if you're looking at every goal, and your child maybe is in gen ed, and it's only saying Special Ed teacher? Or, you know, there are again, a lot of red flags to look at, like, who is responsible for that goal? And the team approach can be, you know, a great one, right? So because, again, you don't want something like if they are getting pulled out, you know, so if you're doing OT for 20 minutes a week, and it's not being implemented anywhere else, you know, are they getting what they need? You know, maybe depending on the goal, but maybe not. So, all right, so finally, we land at number five, compromise, collaborate, and know your options. So this is your child's team, right? You're gonna have to be on the same page to sign that IEP and get your child what they need. But Lisa, can you first explain the importance of the compromise and collaborate?
Lisa
Yeah. So I think that at the end of the day, you know, most of the people who are in your child's IEP meeting are there for the right reasons, right? They want to help kids learn and grow. You know, they're not bad guys, right? They're there to help. So we do want to start from a place of compromise, I always say I compromise and collaborate. Always start there.
And I think you can, you know, we've all heard the phrase, you can get more with honey, right. And that doesn't always work. I know it doesn't always work. I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses, believe me, but I always want to start there. So I'm always saying, you know, be assertive. Get across, you know, what's important to you and your child. And be willing to hear what they have to say and really listen to what they're saying. They may know something that you don't know about how your child learns.
Another thing is if there are key parts of the meeting that were very important to document to you, ask to have the notes read out loud, or ask if those specific things are in the notes.
Just so you can make sure that you were heard, as you intended to be. But I do recommend that you really do your best to collaborate. And when you're asking for something, ask yourself if you're going to only accept exactly what you're asking, or if there is room for compromise, and know that going in, right? Maybe your child needs an aide and they're saying to you “But your child's doing really, really well at lunch, your child's having no problems at lunch.” And if there's no safety concerns, of course, then maybe be willing to just say, Well, I'm not going to sign the aide away, but I'm willing to try it for a week, you know, before you sign that aide away for lunch. So just be open to trying things and being collaborative. Does that make sense?
Lindsay
Yeah, it absolutely does. And I know everyone is going in there, you're hoping right that the people are going to come together and do what your child needs, right? But the second part of number five is know your options, right? Because again, you know, we're going in with those intentions of hope, and hope of collaboration, but if we can't come to a compromise, we do need to know our options. So what are those, Lisa? And how do we weigh those options?
Lisa
Yeah, so if you can't agree with the school in its entirety, you know that you can sign the IEP in disagreement. Now, I always say that you're going to at least agree with one thing, right, you're going to agree that your child is eligible for special education. So you're gonna agree to eligibility right? Almost always.
You can do what's called ADR, alternative dispute resolution, which is a non-legal, informal resolution process with the school. You could ultimately file due process, which is a whole other discussion, I'm sure, but you can agree to parts of the IEP in California. You can agree to implement, for example, the goals but not that service. Or you can implement this placement but not that goal. So you can really pick it apart and agree to parts and other not other parts.
Lindsay
Right. And, you know, the hope is always that we don't have to get there. But the reality is, sometimes you might, and it can still sometimes be a collaborative process, like you're talking with ADR, hopefully, right? You can get to that end goal. But at the end of the day, if your ask is something that is, you know, is essential to your child's well-being, and the school doesn't see it the same way, you know, you might have to at least know the options of what comes next and what that looks like, and what is important to know about that process and all the different stages.
Lisa
Yeah, and if you find yourself in a position where you're really just disagreeing with something in the IEP, if you're an Undivided member, talk to your Navigator, or if you have a friend you can talk to, just to kind of get an idea of how to sign it. And you do want to sign it, right, one way or the other. At a minimum, you're gonna agree with eligibility, right? That's super important. I see parents say, “I disagree in its entirety.” But you're not. If you're here, you're most likely not disagreeing they're eligible for special ed. So you want to be careful that you think through how you sign it.
Lindsay
That's a really good point. That's definitely good. And I know Lisa I think you have a hard out in two minutes. I was gonna say, well, because I want to do a quick wrap up. Is there anything else, like really quickly, that we haven't covered that we should consider during the meeting?
Lisa
Yeah. My advice as a friend is follow your gut. If your gut tells you something doesn't seem right, your gut is probably on. So, you know, ask questions. Ask a friend. If you have a friend or an advocate in the meeting, you can ask for time, you know, a break and go talk to that person in private or text with them. But if something doesn't feel right, figure out why. Maybe you can't figure it out then in the meeting, but later read through and figure out why your gut is telling you. Because a lot of times I've had parents say, “This just didn't seem right to me. And I don't know why.” And then I've looked at it and I'm like, “I know why. I can figure this one out.” So just follow your gut. Right?
Lindsay
Love that. That's right. Again, don't don't let the dynamics of the meeting overcome what you know inside about your kiddo, like keep that keep that burning. So it is two o'clock, Lisa is back to back scheduled with amazing parents like yourself, but Lisa and I hope that you leave today with the knowledge that you can do it. Right? As scary, intimidating or emotional as IEPs can be, you can hold your own in that space. Remember, you're the most important team member, be prepared. Know what you're asking for. Know the red flags. And when they come up, like Lisa said, just lay that voice in your head. Ask why. And get it on record. Make sure that there's an owner for anything happening in your child's IEP, and go in with the intention that this is your child's team, and that you all want your child to be successful. And if you can't agree on every point, you do have options. So thank you, Lisa, for this like hour-long pep talk. I know personally, I have my child's IEP this week, so I needed this boot camp. Thank you always.
And remember if you want a prep partner, just click on the Kickstart link in the chat and you can schedule with our care team right from the link. Our Navigators are waiting to give you your own personal IEP organization session. So don't forget also we have another event coming in May, don't forget to RSVP, Undivided’s Public Benefit Specialist Lisa Concoff Kronbeck will be here with a different kind of prep. She'll be getting us ready for summer with Regional Center. So do you have respite specialized supervision and social rec approvals that you need to keep your kiddo busy and stimulated throughout the summer? Is all that in order? Well, Lisa is gonna get us in shape so we'll be good to go when school is out. Donna will share the RSVP info in the chat. That's May 4 at 12pm, streaming live right here on our Facebook page. And in the meantime, join us in our parents-only Facebook group. Lisa, Donna, Iris, and I and the rest of the Navigators, we’re all in there with an amazing community of parents. We're talking about IEPs, camp, summertime and everything in between. Donna will share that link in the chat. And in the meantime, you can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and now Twitter, so stop by and say hello. Our mission is to support you so your children can thrive. And we want you to thrive too. So Happy Monday. We hope to see you soon. Have a good one. Bye.
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